• barsoap@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        Complete nothingburger. What military capability do the Baltic states bring? Isolated geographical position, small countries with small armies and small economies.

        So it’s not a factor in the first place. But even if it was, Ukraine handily outranks Poland when it comes to providing capability. They have an extensive (largely state-owned btw) arms industry, very capable engineers, and, in case you haven’t noticed, fighting spirit.

        Last but not least they’re punching above their weight in Eurovision. Oh wait that was EU accession, not NATO.

        • usernamesaredifficul [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          Isolated geographical position, small countries with small armies and small economies.

          worse than that what they bring to an alliance is pretty much no extra money or anything else but also a significantly higher chance of getting into a war

          frankly I’m of the opinions that everything east of Germany is a pretty cheeky imposition on Russias traditional standing in Europe. You can’t just break all the old rules for operating in Europe and not expect consequences

          • barsoap@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            Traditional standing, yes, as colonial empire. It may be cheeky but why would it be bad standing up against that?

            You know what Russia could have done to prevent NATO expansion? Not invade Moldova, not invade Georgia, and deal with Chechnya in a manner that doesn’t smell of genocide. Make sure that Eastern Europe doesn’t feel threatened so that they don’t feel the need to join NATO. Of course the Baltics, Poland, etc, joined, they don’t want to repeat the experience of being a Russian colony.

            And just for the record no I’m not actually a fan of NATO, or better put the US being part of the whole shebang. Only positive thing about that is that without Europe in the mix the yanks would likely be even worse.

            • usernamesaredifficul [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              they have that standing because they have the guns. They still have the guns so they still have the standing

              those rules don’t just exist for no reason they are to prevent war between the powers in Europe break those rules and you risk war. It doesn’t matter what the Balkans and Poland think they don’t have nuclear weapons

              • barsoap@lemm.ee
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                1 year ago

                Oh yes Moldova, Georgia and Ukraine not being in NATO totally prevented war. How could I forget.

                It doesn’t matter what the Balkans and Poland think

                You’re a hexbear, so presumably self-identify as being on the left. Which then leads me to the question of WTF are you pushing talking points of geopolitical realists, “there are players and there are chess pieces”.

                It very much matters what those states think because, as sovereign states, they enjoy freedom of alliance. To deny that means that you think it is all nice and proper for Russia to still treat them as colonies.

                • usernamesaredifficul [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  It very much matters what those states think because, as sovereign states, they enjoy freedom of alliance

                  I don’t want to be allied with them because they bring nothing to an alliance except liability.

                  Moldova, Georgia, and Ukraine not being in NATO prevented war between Russia and America, Britain, and France. And that is the big war that can’t be allowed to happen

                  this isn’t a new phenomenon we are talking about the great game of empire and there are very good reasons why it was always the conventional wisdom to not mess with Russia over eastern Europe. If they are sovereign states then let them be sovereign states and deal with problems on their own

                  • barsoap@lemm.ee
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                    1 year ago

                    the great game of empire and there are very good reasons why it was always the conventional wisdom

                    That wisdom is called appeasement and has failed again and again. Empires will empire, if you give them a finger they’ll wait for a bit and then take an arm.

                    You seem to be completely realism-pilled. I have my issues with Kraut but watch this, it’s good stuff.

                    If they are sovereign states then let them be sovereign states and deal with problems on their own

                    If they are unemployed and homeless then let them be independent and deal with problems on their own. The fuck. And you call yourself a leftist.

                  • barsoap@lemm.ee
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                    1 year ago

                    Because there’s people living in those countries.

                    Go on, write a letter to an imaginary 6yold niece of yours in Mariopol explaining why it’s better that she lives in a mafia-run police state, than for Ukraine to decide its own fate.

                    Also, states generally refuse to be poker chips, and they have all right to do so. Thus, by insisting that they be, you invariably create conflict.

      • geophysicist@discuss.tchncs.de
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        1 year ago

        NATO is a defensive pact to protect nations from russian aggression, or other states also of course. Ukraine was invaded by Russia. Plenty of geopolitical experts have discussed how financial support of Ukraine is the best investment when it comes to weakening the Russian military. Which makes them less of a threat to NATO

        • UnicodeHamSic [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          It is not an alliance against the Russian federation. It was an alliance against the ussr. After that it became a rogue army for enforcing us hegemony. Every time it has been used it was to make the world worse. This mercenary core was originally made of nazi generals with nazi soldiers as well. So it really boggles the mind that anyone thinks they could be good for the world.

        • NATO is a defensive pact to protect nations from russian aggression

          NATO is a legacy of the Cold War that was aimless until the Russian invasion lol. The Soviet Union even tried to join NATO when it was first talked about and was rebuffed (and you can’t say it’s because “muh democracy,” as Greece, Turkey, and Portugal - a literal fascist state until 1974 - have all been or are authoritarian states at various points in their NATO memberships).

          Plenty of geopolitical experts have discussed how financial support of Ukraine is the best investment when it comes to weakening the Russian military.

          Plenty also argued from the collapse of the Soviet Union that NATO expansion into eastern Europe would antagonize Russia.

          • geophysicist@discuss.tchncs.de
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            1 year ago

            Yeah it’s pretty clear you’re not trying to have a reasonable discussion when you mention that the USSR wanted to join NATO. That was an attempt to undermine the defensive pact by using it’s own rules about inter-member conflicts against it.

            One of the core strengths of NATO is that if a country is invaded then the other countries can’t just vote to kick that state out. There is no mechanism to remove another country from the group, by design. So you are either uninformed or deliberately misrepresenting it when you discuss issues with certain members during their membership