• OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    12
    arrow-down
    38
    ·
    1 year ago

    Wouldn't providing Ukraine with more weapons extend the war? Their latest offensive shows they're running on fumes.

    • Zorque@kbin.social
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      13
      arrow-down
      4
      ·
      1 year ago

      You're right, they should just roll over and accept Russian domination.

      Their comment, of course, was overly simplistic. I'm sure what they meant was "then why are they protesting action that will end the war in Ukraine's favor faster".

      If you only care about blindly ending war as soon as possible by any means necessary, you definitely have two major options. Either let the aggressor do whatever they want, or use overwhelming force to utterly destroy them.

      Which is your preference?

      • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        3
        arrow-down
        13
        ·
        1 year ago

        If you only care about blindly ending war as soon as possible by any means necessary, you definitely have two major options. Either let the aggressor do whatever they want, or use overwhelming force to utterly destroy them.

        Except this is assuming that the US is omnipotent. The US cannot use overwhelming force to defeat Russia in the conflict. That leaves only not supplying arms to reduce the length of the war and casualties.

        • Zorque@kbin.social
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          7
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          1 year ago

          So you prefer just letting aggressors do whatever they want, got it.

          As anti-war as you or I may be, there's more than enough petty dictators who are more than happy to be pro-war and fuck up the world.

          • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            3
            arrow-down
            10
            ·
            edit-2
            1 year ago

            So you prefer just letting aggressors do whatever they want

            I dont have that principle, I think there are cases when you should and when you shouldn't.

            there’s more than enough petty dictators who are more than happy to be pro-war and fuck up the world.

            I'm more concerned about the US. Why is biggest kid on the block when it comes to genocide and war so enthusiastic to supply Ukraine with arms?

            Especially given operation AERODYNAMIC by the cia…

            • Zorque@kbin.social
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              4
              arrow-down
              2
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              Ah, whataboutism, the first recourse of the desperate to appear neutral.

              The US military industrial complex, and the politicians who serve it, have a lot to answer for. Keeping Ukrainians from being overrun by wannabe world dominators is not one of them.

              Your principle seems to be pointing fingers at the big boys while you let the small fries die in trenches, begging for help that will never come because "It's just not right for the US to do things!"

              • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                2
                arrow-down
                9
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                Whataboutism isn't a logical fallacy(and claiming it is was first used to defend British colonial violence) also if it was what I was doing wasn't whataboutism, it was questioning the motives of the person providing aid.

                Your principle seems to be pointing fingers at the big boys while you let the small fries die in trenches, begging for help that will never come because “It’s just not right for the US to do things!”

                Continuing the war so more people die isn't helping. War is a racket, it is always a racket.

            • Solar Bear@slrpnk.net
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              I dont have that principle, I think there are cases when you should and when you shouldn’t [let aggressors do whatever they want]

              Personally I don't think there's any case where we should be telling other peoples to just accept their annexation or colonization. I'd be interested to hear the argument otherwise.

              I’m more concerned about the US. Why is biggest kid on the block when it comes to genocide and war so enthusiastic to supply Ukraine with arms?

              Because it defends American hegemony and weakens an anti-American state. It's not a hard question to answer. That doesn't mean it's not also the right thing to do regardless. Bad people can go good things for bad reasons. Unfortunately some seem to think the deaths of Ukrainians and pillaging of their land is a sacrifice worth making in order to geopolitically weaken America. I'm all for reducing America's global power, but I'm not so cruel as to choose other people's lives to trade for it against their will.

              If Ukraine wants to defend itself, I think it's a good thing to air them in that; I also think making such invasions as difficult and expensive as possible is the anti-war position.

              • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                8
                ·
                1 year ago

                Personally I don’t think there’s any case where we should be telling other peoples to just accept their annexation or colonization. I’d be interested to hear the argument otherwise.

                Idk I'm pretty anti-nationalist. People's material conditions and also not being dead matter more than imaginary lines on a map.

                Because it defends American hegemony and weakens an anti-American state. It’s not a hard question to answer. That doesn’t mean it’s not also the right thing to do regardless.

                I mean that really should factor into it.

                Unfortunately some seem to think the deaths of Ukrainians and pillaging of their land is a sacrifice worth making in order to geopolitically weaken America. I’m all for reducing America’s global power, but I’m not so cruel as to choose other people’s lives to trade for it against their will.

                Fighting to the last Ukrainian kills more Ukrainians than allowing their government to sign a peace deal, or at least allowing their government to lose more quickly.

                If Ukraine wants to defend itself, I think it’s a good thing to air them in that;

                What do you mean by ukraine? Do you mean the government? The ukrainian population? Part of the ukrainian population?

                • Solar Bear@slrpnk.net
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  3
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  People's material conditions and also not being dead matter more than imaginary lines on a map.

                  This is unbelievably dishonest. You think the only material change is a redrawing of borders? C'mon now.

                  Fighting to the last Ukrainian kills more Ukrainians than allowing their government to sign a peace deal, or at least allowing their government to lose more quickly.

                  Not your choice to make. If they want to defend their land against unwarranted invasion, that's their choice. You don't get to decide what somebody else's life is worth.

                  What do you mean by ukraine? Do you mean the government? The ukrainian population? Part of the ukrainian population?

                  Available information indicates a strong support of the defense effort among the Ukrainian populace.

                  • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    arrow-down
                    8
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    This is unbelievably dishonest. You think the only material change is a redrawing of borders? C’mon now

                    Theyre both right wing states.

                    Not your choice to make. If they want to defend their land against unwarranted invasion, that’s their choice. You don’t get to decide what somebody else’s life is worth.

                    Conscription, + I'm not saying they can't, Im just saying it is going to get more people killed to further supply them.

                    Available information indicates a strong support of the defense effort among the Ukrainian populace.

                    Okay, but that can't be taken in ethnically russian areas and doesn't answer the question.

        • kent_eh@lemmy.ca
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          Except this is assuming that the US is omnipotent. The US cannot use overwhelming force to defeat Russia in the conflict.

          Good thing pretty much every western country is supporting Ukraine's defensive war effort.

          Nobody expects the US to be the sole support for Ukraine.

          • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            2
            arrow-down
            6
            ·
            1 year ago

            Good thing pretty much every western country is supporting Ukraine’s defensive war effort.

            How is that going?