I mean it is essentially murdering people partying on people's graves - not proportional but I can't imagine people didnt know it was a provocation.
Its tragic but I think unless people start calling the Israeli government's decades of murders and evictions "terrorism" it seems like the press is very much deciding how people should see "Hamas as the sole villain" and I think there's a certain amount of justified pushback here thats being misinterpreted as "support for Hamas"
Provoking something by living your life doesn't mean you're bad. It just means you're taking a risk that the dust has settled.
The people that died in the attack aren't any worse than anyone here, they were put in this position by the israeli government and its policies. Israel has more bodies than Hamas in this fight. There are two villains here and its unfortunate the press only describes one as terrorists.
Hamas being equated with the entirety of the Palestinian people and diaspora is what pisses me off the most. Israel tries to equate them all together so it can commit genocide without any eye-batting.
Can you name a single participant in a single (active) war that did not kill civilians? Saying all war is a war crime, kind of makes war crimes pointless.
And then even if we accept im wrong on that point (which honestly, im willing to do) my other points still stand.
If we put the perpetuators in charge of defining, what constitutes as a crime and what doesn't, there would be no crime anywhere and never.
If a nations military or other organized fighters are conducting operations the terms and rules for war crimes should apply and the perpetuators and organizers should be held responsible. That goes for Hamas fighters and leaders as well as IDF soldiers and leaders.
Yes, thats probably how it should be, but thats not how it actually is. Hence why the US doesnt sign conventions on war crimes either. and why we dont talk about terrorist groups like Al Queda as being war criminals.
Urim has been Israeli since the country came into existence, so I’m not really sure what you’re talking about. Unless your position is that all of Israel is occupied territory, in which case I invite you to take a look at what Palestinians did the moment they gained power over Jewish civilians and imagine that scene repeated across Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.
Urim has been Israeli since the country came into existence.
There's so much propaganda from both sides that I don't know what to believe about who, but Israel has only been a country since 1948 - that's after the invention of the Jeep, microwave ovens, Frisbees, jet aircraft, etc.
I'm not aware of the agreement made with Palestine for the land, but I've seen enough videos of Israelis near the border, both citizens and uniformed men, throwing Palestinians out of their houses so Israelis could live there. Not to mention the violent acts.
It was ruled by those. The lands were still owned by Palestinians. The farm lands my mother's family owned were given to them by the Ottomans very long ago to cultivate. Trey had since settled there and started a small town. In 1947/48 they were driven out at gunpoint. They had rifles and fought with them but not much beyond that. The entire family fled to Jordan, Syria, Kuwait, and some other places. I did a 23andMe test long ago, my mother's side is almost entirely Levantian, they are from that area and have been in that area since ages, never took anyone's lands, never hurt anyone. That's your average Palestinian family basically.
Yeah, and the Jews were driven out by the people who stole the land from them, which eventually ended up in the hands of the Ottomans, who then gave it to your mother's family. Go back far enough and everyone has stolen land from someone else. What Israel is doing is fucked up, but they have a historical claim to the land as well.
Arguing that it's your land now because you've had it for a long time is like Americans trying to claim that they don't benefit from colonization and have an unquestionable claim to the US because none of them were around when the native populations were slaughtered and forced into reservations. It's not right to expect you to get up and leave at this point, but ignoring the fact that the land you're sitting on was stolen is also wrong. It wasn't really the Ottoman's land to give.
If you want to lawyer around about historical shit, you can, and I can't stop you. But any decent human being with a fucking soul doesn't care for your pedantic bullshit when there's hundreds of innocent people dead on the ground.
If there is 6000 people in a square kilometre you can always blame the use of "human shields" to distract from the fact that you are bombing densely populated area and your "surgical strikes" are not that surgical.
Hmmm, there is more documented evidence of Israel using human shields (and having to make it "illegal" to keep using Palestinians as human shields but it still happens and many get away with it).
Ah, I'm "lawyering around about historical shit" (historical being within a lifetime) but I'm the one with a cold dead soul because hundreds of "the good people" who stole the land died, and you're the one with a heart of gold who thinks it's lol-worthy and likes to make jokes when tens of thousands of "the bad people" die fighting for their stolen land.
Let me know when you want to attempt to argue in good faith, because as I said from the beginning I'm not well educated on the subject, and your tactics are failing.
Are you trying to guess what my reply would be? If not, you seriously need to look in the mirror bud.
Hamas is a terrorist organization. They are horrific and should all be taken care of… take that how you will. Palestinians and Israel is should be able to live in peace. This much is self evident and shouldn't be up for debate like you're trying to do.
But Israel lobbing back over bombs and killing innocent civilians is the Spider-Man pointing at himself meme.
So if you encountered a criminal holding an innocent person hostage, you would shoot the hostage on the off chance that you might also hit the criminal. You would then shoot the paramedic trying to save the hostages' life.
Your version of the trolley problem must be pretty wack.
you couldnt have a sillier interpretation of your own fantasy scenario.
I would shoot for the criminal. Who, being the peice of shit he is, like Hamas, is likely to throw the hostage into the line of fire and whine about how much of a monster you are.
You're version of the trolley problem is as cooked as the wheels on woolies trollies
It's recent enough that the Palestinians still see the Israelis as recent occupiers, but far enough in the past that the Israelis have had several generations grow up there and see it as their home.
So the Israelis don't see themselves as occupiers while the Palestinians do.
A 1-state solution is impractical at this point, but a 2-state solution leaves them as bitter enemies with a shared border neither side agrees on.
It's a hopelessly fucked situation created by people who have been dead for decades, and I don't think anyone knows a clean way out of it.
The only solutions are for them to share the space, which is pretty much impossible given the hatred, for them to divide the space, which will keep them at way with each other, or to let one side or the other have it all and end up with millions displaced or killed.
But regardless of who is right and wrong and who should be allowed to live there and who shouldn't, I think we can all agree that murdering innocent civilians is wrong whether Israel is doing it or Hamas.
When Israel commits atrocities, they should be called out. When Hamas commits atrocities they should as well.
All of this brings to question whether or not the West should support Israel as one side. And that's a hard question to answer. The West created this situation, and really shouldn't just wash its hands of all responsibility.
As bad as Israel has been, the West can't really walk away because they would be genocided. It's been seen time and again that Iran, Hamas, Israel, Jordan, and others are perfectly happy to wipe them out.
I personally think that instead of supplying Israel with weapons the West should have boots on the ground as peacekeeping forces. They should protect Israel AND Palestine from attacks. By supplying Israel, the West is complicit in their attacks on Palestinians and in the establishment of illegal settlements.
I think they’re saying that because it’s colonized territory and the native population was removed its occupied. So yeah basically arguing against the entire Jewish state. Not my argument just what that is sounding like.
If you were a Palestinian living under occupation, how would you feel about bunch of Israeli's having a party on the other side of a fence to keep your out of your own homeland?
Colonial oppressors throwing a party on stolen land doesn't strike me as very peaceful.
Perhaps it was a bad idea to host a music festival in occupied territory?
Getting Crimea Beach Vacation vibes.
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I mean it is essentially murdering people partying on people's graves - not proportional but I can't imagine people didnt know it was a provocation.
Its tragic but I think unless people start calling the Israeli government's decades of murders and evictions "terrorism" it seems like the press is very much deciding how people should see "Hamas as the sole villain" and I think there's a certain amount of justified pushback here thats being misinterpreted as "support for Hamas"
IMO from this outlook the entire planet is covered in graves and we all are bad for living our life.
Provoking something by living your life doesn't mean you're bad. It just means you're taking a risk that the dust has settled.
The people that died in the attack aren't any worse than anyone here, they were put in this position by the israeli government and its policies. Israel has more bodies than Hamas in this fight. There are two villains here and its unfortunate the press only describes one as terrorists.
I'm unaware of the exact history b/w both the groups to give any sound judgement so I will refrain from doing it.
Hamas being equated with the entirety of the Palestinian people and diaspora is what pisses me off the most. Israel tries to equate them all together so it can commit genocide without any eye-batting.
Can you lot stop throwing out the word war crime to try and make things sound worse and get an emotional response.
Killing civilians is not actually a war crime by itself.
Israel does not recognise Palestine as a country or Hamas as a government, so they cannot be legally at war therefore it can't be a war crime.
Also as far as I'm aware Palestine is not a signatory to any convention on war crimes anyway.
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Can you name a single participant in a single (active) war that did not kill civilians? Saying all war is a war crime, kind of makes war crimes pointless.
And then even if we accept im wrong on that point (which honestly, im willing to do) my other points still stand.
If we put the perpetuators in charge of defining, what constitutes as a crime and what doesn't, there would be no crime anywhere and never.
If a nations military or other organized fighters are conducting operations the terms and rules for war crimes should apply and the perpetuators and organizers should be held responsible. That goes for Hamas fighters and leaders as well as IDF soldiers and leaders.
Yes, thats probably how it should be, but thats not how it actually is. Hence why the US doesnt sign conventions on war crimes either. and why we dont talk about terrorist groups like Al Queda as being war criminals.
State sponsor of terrorism victimized by terrorist attack.
Yes it’s horrible, but partying on stolen land is reckless.
Urim has been Israeli since the country came into existence, so I’m not really sure what you’re talking about. Unless your position is that all of Israel is occupied territory, in which case I invite you to take a look at what Palestinians did the moment they gained power over Jewish civilians and imagine that scene repeated across Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.
There's so much propaganda from both sides that I don't know what to believe about who, but Israel has only been a country since 1948 - that's after the invention of the Jeep, microwave ovens, Frisbees, jet aircraft, etc.
I'm not aware of the agreement made with Palestine for the land, but I've seen enough videos of Israelis near the border, both citizens and uniformed men, throwing Palestinians out of their houses so Israelis could live there. Not to mention the violent acts.
That's because it was owned by the British. Before them the Ottomans, Romans, and Israelites.
It was ruled by those. The lands were still owned by Palestinians. The farm lands my mother's family owned were given to them by the Ottomans very long ago to cultivate. Trey had since settled there and started a small town. In 1947/48 they were driven out at gunpoint. They had rifles and fought with them but not much beyond that. The entire family fled to Jordan, Syria, Kuwait, and some other places. I did a 23andMe test long ago, my mother's side is almost entirely Levantian, they are from that area and have been in that area since ages, never took anyone's lands, never hurt anyone. That's your average Palestinian family basically.
Yeah, and the Jews were driven out by the people who stole the land from them, which eventually ended up in the hands of the Ottomans, who then gave it to your mother's family. Go back far enough and everyone has stolen land from someone else. What Israel is doing is fucked up, but they have a historical claim to the land as well.
Arguing that it's your land now because you've had it for a long time is like Americans trying to claim that they don't benefit from colonization and have an unquestionable claim to the US because none of them were around when the native populations were slaughtered and forced into reservations. It's not right to expect you to get up and leave at this point, but ignoring the fact that the land you're sitting on was stolen is also wrong. It wasn't really the Ottoman's land to give.
Excuse me, but what year was this? At how many thousand years ago do we draw the line for things relevant today?
EDIT: For reference, we are talking about 3,700 years ago.
If you want to lawyer around about historical shit, you can, and I can't stop you. But any decent human being with a fucking soul doesn't care for your pedantic bullshit when there's hundreds of innocent people dead on the ground.
Hmm
I know. Hamas is bad at killing Israelis. But they keep trying it.
They're also very good at using human shields.
If there is 6000 people in a square kilometre you can always blame the use of "human shields" to distract from the fact that you are bombing densely populated area and your "surgical strikes" are not that surgical.
Hmmm, there is more documented evidence of Israel using human shields (and having to make it "illegal" to keep using Palestinians as human shields but it still happens and many get away with it).
Hamas propaganda videos don't count as documented evidence.
Ah, I'm "lawyering around about historical shit" (historical being within a lifetime) but I'm the one with a cold dead soul because hundreds of "the good people" who stole the land died, and you're the one with a heart of gold who thinks it's lol-worthy and likes to make jokes when tens of thousands of "the bad people" die fighting for their stolen land.
Let me know when you want to attempt to argue in good faith, because as I said from the beginning I'm not well educated on the subject, and your tactics are failing.
And there you go, dehumanizing the victims and justifying their murder.
Are you trying to guess what my reply would be? If not, you seriously need to look in the mirror bud.
Hamas is a terrorist organization. They are horrific and should all be taken care of… take that how you will. Palestinians and Israel is should be able to live in peace. This much is self evident and shouldn't be up for debate like you're trying to do.
But Israel lobbing back over bombs and killing innocent civilians is the Spider-Man pointing at himself meme.
Sounds familiar
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So if you encountered a criminal holding an innocent person hostage, you would shoot the hostage on the off chance that you might also hit the criminal. You would then shoot the paramedic trying to save the hostages' life.
Your version of the trolley problem must be pretty wack.
you couldnt have a sillier interpretation of your own fantasy scenario.
I would shoot for the criminal. Who, being the peice of shit he is, like Hamas, is likely to throw the hostage into the line of fire and whine about how much of a monster you are.
You're version of the trolley problem is as cooked as the wheels on woolies trollies
Why just not shoot them, go home, regroup, work on super surgical drone attacks?
What does cooker mean?
The worst part of this graph is that it only goes back to 2008.
1948 is a tricky amount of time.
It's recent enough that the Palestinians still see the Israelis as recent occupiers, but far enough in the past that the Israelis have had several generations grow up there and see it as their home.
So the Israelis don't see themselves as occupiers while the Palestinians do.
A 1-state solution is impractical at this point, but a 2-state solution leaves them as bitter enemies with a shared border neither side agrees on.
It's a hopelessly fucked situation created by people who have been dead for decades, and I don't think anyone knows a clean way out of it.
The only solutions are for them to share the space, which is pretty much impossible given the hatred, for them to divide the space, which will keep them at way with each other, or to let one side or the other have it all and end up with millions displaced or killed.
But regardless of who is right and wrong and who should be allowed to live there and who shouldn't, I think we can all agree that murdering innocent civilians is wrong whether Israel is doing it or Hamas.
When Israel commits atrocities, they should be called out. When Hamas commits atrocities they should as well.
All of this brings to question whether or not the West should support Israel as one side. And that's a hard question to answer. The West created this situation, and really shouldn't just wash its hands of all responsibility.
As bad as Israel has been, the West can't really walk away because they would be genocided. It's been seen time and again that Iran, Hamas, Israel, Jordan, and others are perfectly happy to wipe them out.
I personally think that instead of supplying Israel with weapons the West should have boots on the ground as peacekeeping forces. They should protect Israel AND Palestine from attacks. By supplying Israel, the West is complicit in their attacks on Palestinians and in the establishment of illegal settlements.
Damn, that is heavy and it really doesn't seem like there's any way for an eventual good peaceful outcome without a lot of bloodshed leading up to it.
Thank you for taking the time to educate me on the subject instead of getting into a keyboard war. You wear the halo this evening.
I think they’re saying that because it’s colonized territory and the native population was removed its occupied. So yeah basically arguing against the entire Jewish state. Not my argument just what that is sounding like.
The festival was for peace. I bet many of the folks that were shot there supported Palestinians.
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If you were a Palestinian living under occupation, how would you feel about bunch of Israeli's having a party on the other side of a fence to keep your out of your own homeland?
Colonial oppressors throwing a party on stolen land doesn't strike me as very peaceful.