seems like the ‘safe’ public opinion is ‘we stand behind israel’ and the left opinion is palestinian support
i don’t live there i don’t have any particular interest or fascination with the region i don’t understand any of this pls don’t yell at me
seems like the ‘safe’ public opinion is ‘we stand behind israel’ and the left opinion is palestinian support
i don’t live there i don’t have any particular interest or fascination with the region i don’t understand any of this pls don’t yell at me
How do you recommend that Palestinians engage in armed struggle?
Probably by fighting actual soldiers, not bombing civilians and kidnapping children.
Do you recognize the bombing of Hiroshima as a war crime?
Yeah, that was messed up.
Is there any war that was fought in a way you find acceptable?
I don't know enough about wars to say there was any that was completely squeaky clean, but there's a spectrum. Like, Britain killing Germans in WWII probably wasn't as bad as what Japanese soldiers did in Nanjing. It was bad, but not as bad.
The British 100% engaged in war crimes during WWII, including the bombing of the city of Dresden.
Can we agree that those war crimes (while wrong and regrettable) don't mean the British were in the wrong in fighting WWII?
I suppose so. Still, Britain could have fought fair, on the battle fronts, after evacuating civilians. They weren't wrong for fighting WWII in the first place; they were wrong for how they went about it.
One point I saw elsewhere in this thread is that Western military support makes it such that if Hamas were to create actual military posts to fight a fair fight like I was imagining, then Israel would just bomb those places and that would be that. No more armed struggle by Palestinian forces because there would be no more Palestinian forces. So the only way for them to have a chance is to fight dirty, hiding among civilians and such.
Sure, I agree that'd be best. I can't think of a war that hasn't had a reprehensible component; I'm not sure it's possible to entirely avoid civilian casualties.
I don't think we really disagree on much here. I don't think every aspect of what the Palestinian forces are doing is good, but I do think they've been forced into a (literal) corner, where they don't have any choices.
With exactly the same argument (Hiroshima/Dresden) Israel could flatten Gaza because „war“
I actually don't agree with the U$ bombing of Hiroshima, I just used it as an example that I thought would be easily understood.
I don't think the same applies to the zionist entity because it does not have a just cause for war.
lmaaaaooo
So, specifically palestinians in general?
I think based on what little I know of the region and the style of invasion, guerrilla tactics would likely be ideal. Finding some sort of ally on the global stage to help them argue their case against israels abundant political backing. Make the occupation as inconvenient for israels government as possible, while doing everything they can to shift the global publics opinion into sympathy for their fight.
The current engagement is largely guerilla tactics against military installations.
This is not armed struggle. The Palestinians have a right to armed struggle.
The current engagement bombed a music festival.
That is absolutely part of armed struggle. Look at ukraine, and how its usage of global opinion saved it from a 2 week slaughter fest by giving it the backing of US intelligence. Ukraine perfectly demonstrated how, if you are the underdog losing the war, being able to shift global public opinion of your situation can literally save your life.
Instead, they alienated every nation who had a civilian at that event, gave israel an excuse to declare war and openly genocide their people instead of hide it in inches, made it racially charged by immediately releasing a statement blaming zionist jews and calling for jewish extinction, and gave their political opponents across the globe free and easy ammunition to shut up any pro palestine rhetoric or talking points.
Hamas really fucked up. They gave anti palestine sentiment a free scapegoat target. They are lucky spain is taking the charge to try and distance palestine from hamas on the global stage, because its going to be even harder to shake israel of its massive global backing that it relies on in order to hold on to power.
I sympathize with palestine. Israels government is run by monsters. But this action may be the spark israel needed to burn palestine to the ground, and its very very very hard to un-bomb civilians.
A music festival on the edge of the world's largest open-air prison is not a neutral event.
Courting public opinion is not armed struggle.
We agree that Palestinians have a right to armed struggle, right?
How do you recommend they go about that?
Hahahahahahaha, what??? Proximity to a prison doesnt make it a military target. They would have fucked up just as bad if they attacked the prison. Civilians are still civilians even when you disagree with how they spend their time. Unless you think the bombing of hiroshima was justified?
You were already given an answer. Repeating the question means I will repeat my answer. If you dont understand how the global stage is now a part of armed warfare, you are behind every armed force on the planet.
Ok, you answered that guerilla tactics would be best.
Any guerrilla struggle involves harm (even if accidental) to civilian populations.
If we agree that Palestinians have a right to armed struggle, and agree that they should use guerrilla tactics, why are you not supporting them?
Because that was not a guerrilla tactical strike? Nor was it accidental? It was a war crime.
They intentionally targeted civilian gatherings. Thats not armed struggle, thats cold blood killing.
Are you claiming the US was justified in its atomic bombing of hiroshima? By your given criteria, it also falls under armed struggle. Do you not believe it was a war crime?
I do consider it a war crime, I used it as an example because that's not common in Western spaces.
I'll be happy to concede to you that the attack on the music festival was reprehensible, if you can concede that the Palestinian attacks on military installations were appropriate and called for.
You comment that you are a fucked up person if you find it ok to kill civilians.
Without raping and murdering civilians, to start? Fuck Israel, but that doesn't make Hamas the good guys.
Is there a war that you think was fought justly?
Oh fuck off with that hexbear lemmygrad shit. I'm not talking about war as some nebulous concept, I'm saying raping and killing civilians is bad regardless of if you've been wronged or not. If that's a controversial opinion to you, I have nothing more to discuss.
And in every real war that has been fought, including the allies in WW2, heinous shit has happened.
Do the war crimes of the allies in WW2 mean that they were wrong to fight?
Ah yes, I forgot about that time Churchill bombed a German music festival and raped the survivors.
See, that's the exact kind of whataboutism I'm talking about. Two wrongs don't make a right, and frankly I suspect the only reason you give a shit is because hating Israel is such a hot tankie talking point right now.
Let me guess, Palestine needs to throw off its oppressors, but Russia's invasion of Ukraine was a totally justified military operation?