"Cutting water, cutting electricity, cutting food to a mass of civilian people is against international law," said EU foreign policy chief Josep Borrell in Muscat.
If you want to just count recent history, jews started buying land and returning to Palestine in the late 1800s. They started flooding in after some anti-semitic pogroms in the early 20th century and things have been spicy since.
This isn't a conflict that was going on in the Ottoman period. This is a recent conflict and this attempt to turn it into a thousands year old religious war is bullshit. This is a colonial project where the goal is to take land. Very material in nature. That project has been in place since 1948.
Quite the opposite. I feel the same as you, both sides should be allowed to stay. What's done is done and ethnically cleansing the area is obviously a horrific crime that oughtn't be advocated for in either direction. Where we differ is that I see the two state solution as setting the region up for the same conflict down the road. After decades of settlement the areas which would make up the Palestinian state would be non-contiguous swiss cheese. It would be an untenable situation.
Instead, a singular, secular, egalitarian state with universal suffrage and human rights guaranteed for all would be a challenging path, but I think ultimately a more stable one. And a path which would leave room for healing in the future.
Bulshit.
The diaspora started in 63BC, under Roman rule.
Everybody could live peacefully side by side in one country, save for the religious nutheads pushing their hatred rhetoric
There’s a reason why every single non politician Palestinian who favors peace wants a single state. If material conditions persist what good will some embassies do Palestine?
Debatable. The people who think it's a millennia-long feud are counting from when the Romans threw the Israelites out of Israel according to the Bible. For them, protecting Israel at all costs is a religious thing, and their religion has existed for millennia, so 💁
Islam hadn't even come about at that time, however, so people casting it as a religious war between Jews and Muslims come across as especially disingenuous if they try to frame it that way. Hell, the Romans hadn't even Christianized at that time. Is it a war between Judaism and Paganism? C'mon.
You and I both know that, but the Bible - thumping loonies who support Israel's corrupt government right or wrong don't. They literally think that if the U.S. ever wavers or gives up support of the Israeli government in any way, it'll bring on the end times and trigger the prophecies in the Book of Revelations.
🤔 I never used to put much stock into the argument that religion is dangerous, but seeing how it affects everyone else politically, I will have to concede that point. It is very dangerous to civil society. If that's a authoritarian thing to say, it doesn't really matter – the truth is inherently authoritarian in the minds of the weak.
The region of Israel was created in 1948 by stealing Palestinian land to give to white European Jews. It's not a religious conflict, it's European colonialism
There have actually been plenty of periods of peace and tolerance in the middle east over the millennia. When these feuds break out people go back and dig up ancient reasons to justify them, but the feuds themselves are new and are not contiguous with those ancient ones.
Ehhhhh…when everyone reporting on it and everyone involved all acknowledge these old reasons as the root of the issue, I'm inclined to believe them over some comment on Lemmy.
When these feuds break out people go back and dig up ancient reasons to justify them
So they say now that "we're doing this because a thousand years ago their ancestors did our ancestors dirty", but there were periods in between then and now where it was water under the bridge and people got on with their lives.
If you think that people in those regions have literally been killing each other every day for over a thousand years, how is anyone actually left at this point?
So conflicts like this can never actually end? Any peace is an illusion, just a pause before the next turn of the wheel? I don't have such a pessimistic view.
There have been conflicts like this throughout history that really have permanently faded off back into the past, with the modern descendants living perfectly fine together and no longer concerned about those original causes of the conflict. If they end up with some new reason to fight in the future they may fight again, of course, and they may even dredge up those old conflicts as part of their propaganda. But it would be a new conflict, not the old one reborn. They're not going to just up and start fighting again for no new reason.
Exactly. We can say that about anywhere, and many people can claim Palestine as their ancestral home. It's in the past and that's over now. Sucks but my people went through it. Get every white and European off of my continent and ancestral lands and I'd be more sympathetic. P.s that's what makes me laugh too about all this, North American kids bitching about Israel colonizing Palestine, meanwhile my native ass is sitting there wondering if they get the irony.
Israel isn't going away, the people who think the answer is getting rid of it are delusional.
Lol, no, not quite. Nice try, but theres a difference between "every piece of land has bloodshed" and "a decade ago is technically the past, so you need to excuse all the war crimes we committed!"
No one gives a shit about your native ass crying "they killed people before, why should we save their lives??" Your ancestral injustice does not justify modern injustice.
Just admit youre racist and shuuut the fuuuck uuuup, no one wants your opinion
You literally said, in this thread, that youre native born who had your ancestors land taken from you and no one stopped that, so why should anyone help here?
Thats racial, dude. You said that. Im not falling back on anything, Im pointing the fucked up things you said.
Heard a lot of shit Iran's supposed to be involved with in the region, but it's the first time I hear them being accused of having engineered the Israel -Palestine conflict. How do you figure that? I would've understood accusing France for their involvement in sykes-picot, or even the Turks since the Ottomans administered the region in early 20th century. But Iran started supporting the Palestinians after the 1979 revolution, before that the Shah very much supported Israel. So I have a hard time seeing how they could be blamed for engineering the conflict.
Good luck stopping a millennia old feud
Damn, 1948 was a thousand years ago? Time is weird, I guess.
If you want to just count recent history, jews started buying land and returning to Palestine in the late 1800s. They started flooding in after some anti-semitic pogroms in the early 20th century and things have been spicy since.
Those Jews were not interested in a Jewish state in Palestine. That didn’t come until political Zionism in the interwar period.
Even before that there was some violence between the communities, which is what I was referring to.
Do you think the region of Palestine and Arabs/Jews were created in 1948?
This isn't a conflict that was going on in the Ottoman period. This is a recent conflict and this attempt to turn it into a thousands year old religious war is bullshit. This is a colonial project where the goal is to take land. Very material in nature. That project has been in place since 1948.
Removed by mod
Quite the opposite. I feel the same as you, both sides should be allowed to stay. What's done is done and ethnically cleansing the area is obviously a horrific crime that oughtn't be advocated for in either direction. Where we differ is that I see the two state solution as setting the region up for the same conflict down the road. After decades of settlement the areas which would make up the Palestinian state would be non-contiguous swiss cheese. It would be an untenable situation.
Instead, a singular, secular, egalitarian state with universal suffrage and human rights guaranteed for all would be a challenging path, but I think ultimately a more stable one. And a path which would leave room for healing in the future.
Bulshit. The diaspora started in 63BC, under Roman rule. Everybody could live peacefully side by side in one country, save for the religious nutheads pushing their hatred rhetoric
Are you really saying that Holocaust happened because of the Palestinians.
Jews and Muslims were literally brother before all this western bullshit, so come on.
Unbelievable 🙁
You might want to double check who kicked out the Jews and started the diaspora.
Which country gets the Temple Mount?
There’s a reason why every single non politician Palestinian who favors peace wants a single state. If material conditions persist what good will some embassies do Palestine?
Debatable. The people who think it's a millennia-long feud are counting from when the Romans threw the Israelites out of Israel according to the Bible. For them, protecting Israel at all costs is a religious thing, and their religion has existed for millennia, so 💁
Islam hadn't even come about at that time, however, so people casting it as a religious war between Jews and Muslims come across as especially disingenuous if they try to frame it that way. Hell, the Romans hadn't even Christianized at that time. Is it a war between Judaism and Paganism? C'mon.
You and I both know that, but the Bible - thumping loonies who support Israel's corrupt government right or wrong don't. They literally think that if the U.S. ever wavers or gives up support of the Israeli government in any way, it'll bring on the end times and trigger the prophecies in the Book of Revelations.
🤔 I never used to put much stock into the argument that religion is dangerous, but seeing how it affects everyone else politically, I will have to concede that point. It is very dangerous to civil society. If that's a authoritarian thing to say, it doesn't really matter – the truth is inherently authoritarian in the minds of the weak.
Removed by mod
The region of Israel was created in 1948 by stealing Palestinian land to give to white European Jews. It's not a religious conflict, it's European colonialism
Removed by mod
That's just a different coat of paint. It's still the same settler colony it always was.
There have actually been plenty of periods of peace and tolerance in the middle east over the millennia. When these feuds break out people go back and dig up ancient reasons to justify them, but the feuds themselves are new and are not contiguous with those ancient ones.
Ehhhhh…when everyone reporting on it and everyone involved all acknowledge these old reasons as the root of the issue, I'm inclined to believe them over some comment on Lemmy.
As I said:
So they say now that "we're doing this because a thousand years ago their ancestors did our ancestors dirty", but there were periods in between then and now where it was water under the bridge and people got on with their lives.
If you think that people in those regions have literally been killing each other every day for over a thousand years, how is anyone actually left at this point?
Just because there may be periods of peace doesn't mean these deep rooted issues just no longer matter.
So conflicts like this can never actually end? Any peace is an illusion, just a pause before the next turn of the wheel? I don't have such a pessimistic view.
There have been conflicts like this throughout history that really have permanently faded off back into the past, with the modern descendants living perfectly fine together and no longer concerned about those original causes of the conflict. If they end up with some new reason to fight in the future they may fight again, of course, and they may even dredge up those old conflicts as part of their propaganda. But it would be a new conflict, not the old one reborn. They're not going to just up and start fighting again for no new reason.
I can say that about literally every piece of land on the planet.
So can you. You literally did, in a comment in this exact thread
Exactly. We can say that about anywhere, and many people can claim Palestine as their ancestral home. It's in the past and that's over now. Sucks but my people went through it. Get every white and European off of my continent and ancestral lands and I'd be more sympathetic. P.s that's what makes me laugh too about all this, North American kids bitching about Israel colonizing Palestine, meanwhile my native ass is sitting there wondering if they get the irony.
Israel isn't going away, the people who think the answer is getting rid of it are delusional.
Lol, no, not quite. Nice try, but theres a difference between "every piece of land has bloodshed" and "a decade ago is technically the past, so you need to excuse all the war crimes we committed!"
No one gives a shit about your native ass crying "they killed people before, why should we save their lives??" Your ancestral injustice does not justify modern injustice.
Just admit youre racist and shuuut the fuuuck uuuup, no one wants your opinion
Always falling back on racism is why people don't support you
You literally said, in this thread, that youre native born who had your ancestors land taken from you and no one stopped that, so why should anyone help here?
Thats racial, dude. You said that. Im not falling back on anything, Im pointing the fucked up things you said.
They didn't say anything racial
Not a millenia old feud. A one-centure-GB-US-Iran engeneered old feud.
Heard a lot of shit Iran's supposed to be involved with in the region, but it's the first time I hear them being accused of having engineered the Israel -Palestine conflict. How do you figure that? I would've understood accusing France for their involvement in sykes-picot, or even the Turks since the Ottomans administered the region in early 20th century. But Iran started supporting the Palestinians after the 1979 revolution, before that the Shah very much supported Israel. So I have a hard time seeing how they could be blamed for engineering the conflict.
Haven't read a history book I take it, if you think the fight over Palestine is a new thing. I guess you've also never heard of the Crusades
What side were the Jews on in the crusades?
lol right back atcha chief.
lol
You are aware that the region known as Palestine and the Arab people existed before 1948 right?