Additionally, what changes are necessary for you to be able to use Linux full time?
I got tired of everything taking so much effort. I was almost always able to eventually wrangle what I wanted out of the OS, but every change I wanted to make and thing I wanted to try needed so much searching and learning. I wanted stuff that just worked, even if it was “dumber.”
That, and some parts of the community I ran into were really prickly. One that was especially memorable: I was asking for help on a big-ish project with a lot of followers and helpers and didn’t expect the lead dev to answer my question, but when he did, he felt the need to make a snide as hell comment about how I have no business being there if I’m going to forget to start a service. On top of the exhaustion I was already feeling, I had a massive moment of “okay my guy, I guess I’ll just fucking leave then.”
Anyway, it just feels better being a poweruser on windows. I know enough to keep it clean, safe, and slim (like using powershell to disable the bits they don’t expose to a settings UI, for example) – to truly admin my machine – without having to work so hard for it day in and day out.
Unfortunately, those kinds of interactions are inevitable when the developer/user relationship is so close. And it goes both ways. I saw a thread just yesterday where a user reported an issue on github, a second user said they saw it too. Later the first user posted a workaround to the issue, and the second user came back with “took you long enough”, and that was the end of the exchange.
Some people in the world are just dicks, but that doesn’t mean we should reject interacting with everyone. Similarly, a community of user-maintained software is going to have some asshats, but that doesn’t mean we should hand our computing freedom over to one or two corporations. Just my two cents.
It just doesn’t work. It’s a simple as that. Things are constantly breaking. When they do I look up support articles that are written in fucking Klingon and sent to the terminal to type in commands that always return some sort of generic error “command not found” or some shit because the solution is written for a different one of the 862700422 available distros.
I have no idea how to install all the different program types (flathub, db, appimage, etc.). Windows has exe. I click “install” and boom, it’s done.
Sometimes I try to remove software in the package manager and it acts like it is uninstalled but it’s still fucking there.
I can’t even select a file because there are no previews. Just a gazillion blue squares with names like “dlcosn_3947912947”.
And other reasons, but I digress. I don’t have time to learn a new career, I just want a computer that works.
I have no idea how to install all the different program types (flathub, db, appimage, etc.). Windows has exe. I click “install” and boom, it’s done.
That’s strange, I’ve always felt that installing stuff is a lot easier on Ubuntu than windows. It’s just
apt install <program>andapt remove <program>. Having to manually download and run an exe feels outdated in comparison.I can’t even select a file because there are no previews. Just a gazillion blue squares with names like “dlcosn_3947912947”.
Curious what distro you installed that had that issue. The only preview issue I’ve encountered was on win10 where I had to pay for windows to support H.265 to give me previews of H.265 files.
Things are constantly breaking. When they do I look up support articles that are written in fucking Klingon and sent to the terminal to type in commands that always return some sort of generic error “command not found” or some shit because the solution is written for a different one of the 862700422 available distros.
That’s a fair point though. If you aren’t willing (and most aren’t) to learn enough to be comfortable with the terminal, it can be very easy break something when you are forced to interact with the terminal.
I’ve always felt that installing stuff is a lot easier on Ubuntu than windows. It’s just apt install <program> and apt remove <program>.
😂 Except that you have to know exactly what <program> is, character for character, and usually includes some long string of numbers and letters where 1 character is wrong and you have to retype the whole damn thing. This is the opposite of easy.
Curious what distro you installed that had that issue.
Fedora/Gnome
If you aren’t willing (and most aren’t) to learn enough to be comfortable with the terminal, it can be very easy break something when you are forced to interact with the terminal.
Yes and the problem is you’re ALWAYS sent into the terminal for absolutely any kind of debugging.
Except that you have to know exactly what <program> is, character for character
Everything has [Tab] completion these days.
And double tab for a list of you really don’t want to search.
I really, really want to love Linux.
Mate introduced me to Red Hat in the very late 90s and I keep trying various distros every year or two - last time was about 2020 so my views here might be a bit out of date now…
When Ubuntu launched I truely believed this would be the start of genuine transformation. While I do see the overall progression in modern distros - installing them is easier than ever - but at its core, it just doesn't seem to truely improve when it comes to usability and user friendliness. As others have said, small changes or issues might require hours of research or a game of copy/paste/pray with commands found on a long lost forum page.
MS make plenty of mistakes and dumb changes but windows has had significant improvements over the years both to the interface but also functions:
W2k/XP dragged us kicking and screaming out of DOS and into the modern era.
Vista made much needed changes to security/driver issues - but it was still a slow pig - particularly updating.
Win7 fixed what Vista should have been - faster, cleaner and simpler, BSoD mostly a thing of the past now driver manufacturers have caught up from Vista fixed updates a bit.
Win8.1 improved boot speeds, had a lot of good under the hood changes that improved deployment and self-repair, good tools for power users (we just don't talk about that start menu)
Win10/11 greatly improved the updating process - still far from perfect but significantly faster and more reliable. No longer the upgrade lottery it was in XP - 7 era.
Not wanting to start a fight here, just my perspective - unfortunately, every time I install Linux, the visuals look good but it always feels like a fancy modern skin over top of something akin to Win98. Sure, it's fast, secure as a MF and not riddled with modern bloat but genuine advancement of the platform feels absent.
Maybe it's because I don't live elbow deep in Linux like I have in windows desktop for the past 20+ years. I do know that it's versatility and power is incredible - from phones and Pi's to world class infrastructure, so maybe that's it. It's designed for maximum power and flexibility that it's not really suited as a general purpose desktop for the masses like windows. It might always remain as a oddity at the desktop level, insanely powerful in the right hands and just a little too complex and less refined to appeal to those not willing to go deep into really learning it.
My employer 😢
See, I sometimes complain about having to use a Mac (the hardware is fine, the OS, meh), but you have reminded me that it could be worse. Thanks for your suffering.
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Broken bootloader.
FIFA23. 22 was working great on linux but they added a new DRM so the new one doesn’t work anymore. Hopefully someone can get the next one to run on Linux so I can ditch windows again.
Building WiFi kernel drivers myself where on Windows its a double click, finding a desktop environment that lets you add a 2nd taskbar in the GUI without losing certain important items like the start menu, system clock, or system tray (I always lost something), finding replacements for certain niche Windows programs is frustrating (VoiceMeeter -> PipeWire), or completely absent, as my Oculus Rift and the Adobe Suite (which I need for my job) was unusable, and my Razer, Logitech, TourBox, Xence, and Elsra devices aren’t programmable, missing or bad support for basic features like multiple monitors and HDR, having to manually set AppImages to run as an application and not open like a file (I know it’s a file), but in the end, needing 2 GPU’s to virtualize a Windows machine officially ended my Linux dreams for the near future.
I use Mint, btw
Ah yes. Good ol Intel drivers or NDISwrapper. I’ve had zero issues these days, but it was bullshit in the past. Though saying that I think my wifi driver building was more to enable phy mode for messing with wifi hacking. WEP was broken beyond belief.
Laser cutter control software is windows only, just haven’t had the time/energy to rip out the entire control system and rework it to be open source.
Be the hero we need! Lol that sounds like a daunting prospect though, so I understand.
It kept working.
Linux, every time, without fail, commits suicide after a few weeks/months. It’s never something big, always small stuff. A conf file which got fucked by a package. Init.d calls something stupid. Mbr bullshit.
And the same applies to get stuff to work. It’s not hard, but researching the issue and fixing it takes time. Those issues do not exist in windows.
It gets annoying. Windows, for all it’s shit has gotten more and more self repairing over the years.
I want to work. I want to play. Now, preferably.
Linux, every time, without fail, commits suicide after a few weeks
You must be doing something really wrong with it because on popular distros this is not really supposed to happen. If you encounter such issues report them to the devs. You probably want to try a more stable distro
They’re not doing anything wrong. This is my experience, as well as many many others. Why else would so many people and businesses overlook a completely free operating system? I’ve used all the “stable” distros.
If I reported issues to the devs, I wouldn’t be doing anything else, and it wouldn’t solve the problem I have TODAY. This is not a solution.
“Why else would so many businesses overlook a completely free operating system”
Well, they don’t. Plenty of businesses use Linux systems. It’s not (only) because it’s free, though. The issue of licensing often isn’t a factor that comes into play over having a system that just works. It’s easy to customize, flexible and comparatively secure. Your experiences with Linux are valid, but many businesses and individuals do use it daily and for good reason.
Well, they don’t. Plenty of businesses use Linux systems.
Well they do. Plenty of businesses (ie: virtually all of them) use Windows. Those are the ones I was referring to.
This is just nonsense. Linux servers are all over the place. Google has its own internal distribution of Ubuntu! I feel like you’re not arguing in good faith, here.
Edit: For reading at your leisure: A list of organizations that have adopted Linux for regular use
This thread is about Linux on the desktop, servers are not really relevant to this discussion.
That’s fair, but it’s hard to not bring up servers when someone is making broad statements like “businesses don’t use Linux”, though. In the scope of that particular discussion I feel servers are pertinent enough.
You are doing something wrong. Linux doesn’t blow up by itself… my grandparents and wife both run it for the past 5 years and haven’t had a single issue with it. So how is it that I know people that are completely tech illiterate and have no problems running it, but so many self-proclaimed “power users” here have issues with it?
Linux isn’t going to wall you in and prevent you from breaking it. That’s what I love about it, it gives you power and control over your machine, but if you don’t have the knowledge to wield that power, then you shouldn’t be fucking around with changing things. Stick with the package manager, and don’t fuck with system configs… unless you actually understand how it effects the system.
Why else would so many people and businesses overlook a completely free operating system
There are many, many reasons… not a single one is stability.
If you think that’s the case. Check some big forums for each big distro right after a point update to read the tales of woe and breakage.
My personal experience with this has been:
Pop_OS broke after an update. Unrepairable as far as I could tell. And I tried hard. Happened to multiple.people there was a reddit thread about it.
Fedora broke on an update. Not sure if repairable. I didn’t try. I had the most boring vanilla installation possible.
Arch has been unbootable twice over the years. And had to do many manual interventions. Both times it was fixable.
People are not lying to you when they say it breaks randomly. Just because it wasn’t your personal experience doesn’t mean it isn’t a common experience. You just have been lucky so far.
People are not lying to you when they say it breaks randomly. Just because it wasn’t your personal experience doesn’t mean it isn’t a common experience. You just have been lucky so far.
Your’e right people are not lying, they just don’t realize what they have done to break it. Linux is great because it gives the users full power… and that includes the power to break it. Windows babysits the user, and it doesn’t allow them to make changes that break it.
If you think that’s the case. Check some big forums for each big distro right after a point update to read the tales of woe and breakage.
So? A lot of dumb people use Linux too… just because dumb people break things doesn’t mean that Linux isn’t stable. There is a reason 90% of web and cloud infrastructure runs on Linux… because it’s a more secure and stable OS.
You just have been lucky so far.
Luck has nothing to do with it.
Your’e right people are not lying, they just don’t realize what they have done to break it.
I’m running a fresh Debian stable build for the past 2-3 days, with NO apt package installed(other than flatpak), no other modifications, vanilla as vanilla gets, only flatpaks installed.
So far: On first install, apt upgrade was broken… lol… yeah.
Other than that, it freezes on suspend, and I’m getting weird screen flickering that it’s really hard to troubleshoot so far, specially because when I turn on OBS it mysteriously just doesnt happen. Also steam doesnt open up sometimes, sometimes it does, depends on if you’re feeling lucky or not, it also doesnt respect the DE settings, so when it does open the scale is wrong, and everything is tiny.
And this is with a distro known to be stable.
Why don’t you explain to me why I have not had any problems running 3 servers for the last 5 years. And why I’ve not had any problems running it on 6 other machines of varying desktops and laptops? Why don’t you explain to me why 90% of web and cloud infrastructure chooses Linux because it is so reliable and stable? I do everything in Linux… everything, including recording in OBS and video editing in Lightworks, no problems.
So tell me, why is it only certain users that seem to have a problem with Linux? Why do you think that is? Because it seems to me the really basic users get on fine with it, and the really advanced users get on fine with it. The only people that have problems are Windows power users that have no fucking clue what they are doing, but try things anyways and break things.
The amount of comments in here that are conjecture or just straight up bullshit is off the charts… my tech illiterate wife, and my 80+ year old grandparents use Linux without any problems.
Different needs, different hardware, different skill levels. My kindergarten kids used it for 2 years for school, no problem. I still don’t use it because its too rough for my advanced needs.
Yeah, Windows is way too limited for anyone with advanced needs. Every time I boot into Windows it feels like I’m wearing 10lb sandbags on my legs and wading through 3 feet of shit… whereas in Linux I can make my computer sing without my hands ever leaving the keyboard, but that’s because Linux is more customizable and offers more control over it.
I’m feeling your defensive feelings for linux lol. I am pro linux. I love open source, private, non-corporate, stable, software. The community has been fairly supportive in my experience. I use it daily on my pi-hole, and HTPC.
My “advanced needs” comment was in comparison to your “tech illiterate wife” and “80+ year old grandparents” comment. I felt your comment was condescending, as if to say it’s so easy to use, anyone could do it. Well as I commented earlier, that may be true based on your needs. My kids used it but their experiences were limited to the browser and zoom.
I’ve attempted several times over the years to switch to it as a daily driver, but never stick, because my “advanced needs” are essentially any computing interest i may have, whether gaming, programming, running local AI, or just setting up my OS the way i like it. You could argue linux can do each of those, but in my personal experience, Windows does it easily and smoothly every single time. The effort of getting Linux to run the way I want, and smoothly, is not worth the benefits to me.
That being said, i am PRO Linux. It’s just not for me, right now as a daily driver. I really really really want that to change in the future. Hell i’m dual booting right now, i just never select it anymore.
Aside from gaming, everything else you mentioned is objectively easier on Linux. Programming is easier because a lot of tooling is already there or just a few clicks in the package manager away. All the local AIs I know run in Linux, and most in docker containers, which objectively works better in Linux by far. And customization? Lmfao… it’s not even close buddy, there is far more customization available in every single major Linux DE than there is in Windows. That’s why I feel so weighted down by Windows, it has dogshit workflows, and you can’t customize them.
For you to say otherwise is just complete fucking ignorance. And that’s not an insult that is a matter of fact, it’s objectively easier to do all those things in Linux. The problem is that you have been institutionalized by Windows… and until you accept that, you will never be able to transition. You need to forgot about how you would do things in Windows, and learn the way things are done in Linux. You can’t also expect to just understand right away either, how many years of experience do you have fucking your brain over with Windows? Yeah, that’s a lot of bullshit to unlearn.
I think it comes down to my level of proficiency with computers. I’m a photographer and an artist. However, I am above average tech literate but with absolutely no formal training compared to anyone in the computer sciences.
When I use a Mac or PC I am a power user and most people think of me as very tech inclined there. I used terminal or command prompt for commands that I have learned from Google for a specific tasks and can follow most guides and tutorials online, but I can’t come up with strings of commands creatively to fix a problem.
With Linux, there’s all these weird little problems that might be unique to me and looking them up is really difficult and when someone says “oh it’s easy. Use the terminal” as if this incredibly confusing thing that I have zero fundamental knowledge of can solve my problem. A genuinely feel illiterate when I use Linux. I can write sudo though 🤷♂️
I feel like saying “just use terminal” is like telling a kindergarten kid to just use creative writing, algebra and calculus. The fundamentals have not been taught yet, I have no idea what to do.
When I learned Mac or PC, I was shown how to use a mouse, I could read and just clicking around and opening things and reading help files let me intuitively learn on my own what to do. With Linux, this way of learning achieves nothing. Maybe I can turn wifi on and off assuming it works when I install it.
And then when an update breaks everything and I have to mess around and terminal for hours or days between doing actual work, It’s a nightmare. The only Linux thing I’ve managed to keep running for years on end is a Synology. I use it for a bit of backup things but thank goodness the OS updates and app updates all work. Nothing is broken and I barely touch the machine. It just grabs my files from the network and backs them up. You should have seen how shocked I was when I was trying to install something on docker and it took days for me to realize I just type the name of the thing I want and it grabbed it from the web and installed it automatically. I spent way too long trying to figure out how to grab the actual package files and open them like installing something via an MSI file in windows.
I am literally a Linux system admin, I bang on a command line interface for a living.
But I don’t use Linux at home, it’s just so much work. Every single thing is complicated. Last time I really tried in earnest to switch to a full Linux setup I was somewhere in the middle of a quick and easy 24-step process to get my webcam working, compiling the drivers from a modified source - and it was just a moment that broke me. Like, I’ve been working on this for an hour and I know I can do it but this is stuff I don’t even think about with windows.
So I broke down and bought Windows 10. It’s what I was trying to avoid, being a tight ass and didn’t want to buy an new OS.
I just don’t have the patience to troubleshoot every tiny thing like a big endeavor. I can, I just don’t want to. Everything I install, every peripheral I connect, it’s always a big deal getting it to work. Heck with that, not worth the trouble.
I don’t think anything like this has really been the case for a long time. How long ago was this?
My gf and I only plays valorant. I really wanted to get into linux environment but I might give it another chance tho. I just need a good distro.
You could dual boot and use Windows for gaming.
Shit just works. I’m not dicking around looking for drivers and stuff. The way I use a computer I’m not really getting a benefit from linux
I’m the opposite. No drivers required in Linux for me. Printer just worked. Wacom tablet just worked. Monitor colour profile just worked. Etc etc etc. Everything has just worked. However, I don’t do bleeding edge video cards, so maybe that’s an issue? I have no idea. Linux though for me, has never needed a driver.
Couldn’t have dual monitors due to Nvidia drivers not working correctly. Couldn’t play Overwatch. Deep Rock Galactic ran very badly and slowly. I’ve used Linux in the past for years but it’s just not good on a gaming laptop.
Not being able to play overwatch or any other blizzard/activision/vivendi/microsoft crap it’s a feature.
ah yes, those highy sought after delights of being restricted, linux is not bad, it’s just like a very strict parent that takes away all your gaming consoles and tells you it’s for your own good, and you know what? i’m happy to be violated everyday by the whims of such a helicopter parent, it’s a feature!!! If possible I would like daddy Linux to remove all my rights to music, movies, entertainment, and leave me only a code editor, a console and a chatroom with my employer, that way I would only work night and day to make money, it would be heaven to be trapped into a world where my only possible thoughts are of code and work.
