I haven’t stated an opinion either way. I’ve simply provided additional context to a historical event you chose to bring up. Why do you feel the need to respond to it in such a kneejerk manner and ascribe my motives? Does the context I’ve provided make you feel uncomfortable in some way?
I have neither dismissed nor denied that a terrible incident happened at Tiananman square on the late hours of June 3rd 1989. I wish for those responsible for plotting and catalysing the incident to face justice for their crimes.
If you’re asking for my personal opinion then I’d say the US is a great deal worse than anything China has done since they took their country back, actually. It’s not even remotely close.
What’s “telling” is the way people such as yourself latch onto anything the western media has to say about America’s geopolitical rivals, in spite of any and all the evidence to the contrary; regardless of the credibility of any of the sources. I mean, are you honestly just going to lap up whatever western media outlets tell you? The guys that told you Iraq undeniably had WMDs? The cynical scum bags who banged the drum about Gaddafi and have subsequently shrugged their shoulders while Libya now wallows with open air slave markets? Those are your respectable sources? You’re going to hang off of every word from weirdo crooks like Adrian Zenz, born-again Christian “China experts” who publicly declare they’re on a mission from God to defeat communism in China? That’s the sort of “impartial” source you’re prepared to die on a hill for? Or maybe its teenagers speculating over satellite photography they pulled up from Google maps?
Here’s something I find telling; that you won’t engage whatsoever with the point I raised in response to you trying to grandstand over the Tiananmen incident; that you swivelled on a dime from gleefully using a massacre as a political football to clutching your pearls that someone dared to bring information to the table that contextualises that event into something more than the simplistic good vs evil narrative you were going for. Do yourself a favour and actually listen to what Chai Ling has to say; it’s been independently verified and held up in a libel case she brought against the journalists when it came to light, so you can rest assured its legitimate. Stop and think about what it really means for the student leader of those killed at Tiananmen to outright admit they were trying to get their supporters massacred after actively blocking attempts to disperse peacefully. Consider the potential significance that she was literally extracted out of her country by the intelligence services of China’s biggest geopolitical rivals. If you’re genuinely appalled with all the death from this event, don’t you think she and her benefactors have something to answer for? Or do you suppose its the place of the United States or Great Britain to stir up trouble in other countries, to dictate who should be in charge there and how their countries should be run?
No, what you don’t have time for is confronting inconvenient truths that fly in the face of your political agenda.
Again, as previously stated I am not downplaying this incident. It happened and it was terrible. If you’re not really just a coward ducking my point (Which I think you are) and you actually think that’s the case then I challenge you to point out how I’m doing so. This was a serious incident and many people died; don’t you think that the people who actively provoked the confrontation between students and soldiers should face up to what they’ve done?
You’re just salty that the Western backed color revolution failed in China. You would have loved to cheer the West on in sucking the country dry the same that it did with Russia after they fell for the Western lies. Just compare the life expectency graphs between Russia and China after 1989:
You’re just salty that the Western backed color revolution failed in China. You would have loved to cheer the West on in sucking the country dry the same that it did with Russia after they fell for the Western lies.
Then how come discussion of Tienanman Square is discouraged, if not banned, instead of being widely extolled as successful defiance of the West? Clearly, unless Xi is actually a US plant, the government does not want discussion of it.
Because this issue is used as a battering ram to weaken the Chinese government. The West keeps talking about there being a ‘Tiananmen Massacre’ where unarmed students were killed even though behind closed doors US diplomats admit there was no bloodshed on TIananmen. It is really hard to defend yourself against those accusations which are false when the other side doesn’t need to produce any evidence whatsoever. What is provable are the deaths of the soldiers and maoists fighting in street battles outside the square but that was not a massacre and funnily enough the West also doesn’t like to talk about those deaths
Alright, I’ll contend that. Your source is thorough enough.
Personally I still see the deaths outside Beijing in the streets to be incredibly problematic and fairly emblematic of the anti free speech/protest position by the government – but I recognize a lot of the specific rhetoric with Tienanman is about killing unarmed students. I see why this is an important distinction, it was just never a real distinction in my mind. Thank you for the clarity.
Didn’t China have huge problems with covid later when the rest of the world was pretty much done with it and the only reason the Chinese government stopped their stupid strategy was because of protests? The strategy worked well in the beginning but it went on for far too long. And the consequences were really bad.
The consequences were way better than the let 'er rip nations. If China had a death toll equivalent to the United States, they’d have 5 million dead. Even the “China is lying” people are talking about hundreds of thousands, or possibly a million, not 5 million.
Staying COVID-zero until better treatments and vaccines are available actually does save lives.
Sure, but you’re whatabouting an injustice of some people being temporarily detained to FOUR MILLION LIVES. If that was actually all it took, that’s a pretty reasonable exchange.
Straight up disgusting attempt to dismiss what happened at Tienanmen square. Gee I wonder what your opinion on the chinese govt is.
I haven’t stated an opinion either way. I’ve simply provided additional context to a historical event you chose to bring up. Why do you feel the need to respond to it in such a kneejerk manner and ascribe my motives? Does the context I’ve provided make you feel uncomfortable in some way?
I have neither dismissed nor denied that a terrible incident happened at Tiananman square on the late hours of June 3rd 1989. I wish for those responsible for plotting and catalysing the incident to face justice for their crimes.
you and the others feel it’s the best use of time to call out how the US is just as bad. That is telling.
If you’re asking for my personal opinion then I’d say the US is a great deal worse than anything China has done since they took their country back, actually. It’s not even remotely close.
What’s “telling” is the way people such as yourself latch onto anything the western media has to say about America’s geopolitical rivals, in spite of any and all the evidence to the contrary; regardless of the credibility of any of the sources. I mean, are you honestly just going to lap up whatever western media outlets tell you? The guys that told you Iraq undeniably had WMDs? The cynical scum bags who banged the drum about Gaddafi and have subsequently shrugged their shoulders while Libya now wallows with open air slave markets? Those are your respectable sources? You’re going to hang off of every word from weirdo crooks like Adrian Zenz, born-again Christian “China experts” who publicly declare they’re on a mission from God to defeat communism in China? That’s the sort of “impartial” source you’re prepared to die on a hill for? Or maybe its teenagers speculating over satellite photography they pulled up from Google maps?
Here’s something I find telling; that you won’t engage whatsoever with the point I raised in response to you trying to grandstand over the Tiananmen incident; that you swivelled on a dime from gleefully using a massacre as a political football to clutching your pearls that someone dared to bring information to the table that contextualises that event into something more than the simplistic good vs evil narrative you were going for. Do yourself a favour and actually listen to what Chai Ling has to say; it’s been independently verified and held up in a libel case she brought against the journalists when it came to light, so you can rest assured its legitimate. Stop and think about what it really means for the student leader of those killed at Tiananmen to outright admit they were trying to get their supporters massacred after actively blocking attempts to disperse peacefully. Consider the potential significance that she was literally extracted out of her country by the intelligence services of China’s biggest geopolitical rivals. If you’re genuinely appalled with all the death from this event, don’t you think she and her benefactors have something to answer for? Or do you suppose its the place of the United States or Great Britain to stir up trouble in other countries, to dictate who should be in charge there and how their countries should be run?
Fascinating stuff, I enjoyed reading this thread. I don’t agree that the US has been worse than China, but you do make some very good points.
yeah I don’t have time to debate people who are only interested in downplaying something really fucked up. Sorry – I won’t read this.
No, what you don’t have time for is confronting inconvenient truths that fly in the face of your political agenda.
Again, as previously stated I am not downplaying this incident. It happened and it was terrible. If you’re not really just a coward ducking my point (Which I think you are) and you actually think that’s the case then I challenge you to point out how I’m doing so. This was a serious incident and many people died; don’t you think that the people who actively provoked the confrontation between students and soldiers should face up to what they’ve done?
You’re just salty that the Western backed color revolution failed in China. You would have loved to cheer the West on in sucking the country dry the same that it did with Russia after they fell for the Western lies. Just compare the life expectency graphs between Russia and China after 1989:
Then how come discussion of Tienanman Square is discouraged, if not banned, instead of being widely extolled as successful defiance of the West? Clearly, unless Xi is actually a US plant, the government does not want discussion of it.
Because this issue is used as a battering ram to weaken the Chinese government. The West keeps talking about there being a ‘Tiananmen Massacre’ where unarmed students were killed even though behind closed doors US diplomats admit there was no bloodshed on TIananmen. It is really hard to defend yourself against those accusations which are false when the other side doesn’t need to produce any evidence whatsoever. What is provable are the deaths of the soldiers and maoists fighting in street battles outside the square but that was not a massacre and funnily enough the West also doesn’t like to talk about those deaths
Alright, I’ll contend that. Your source is thorough enough.
Personally I still see the deaths outside Beijing in the streets to be incredibly problematic and fairly emblematic of the anti free speech/protest position by the government – but I recognize a lot of the specific rhetoric with Tienanman is about killing unarmed students. I see why this is an important distinction, it was just never a real distinction in my mind. Thank you for the clarity.
What about the countless imagery of the incident?
“China’s life expectancy is great and didn’t suffer at all even from the pandemic!”
Source: China
I know right? It’s amazing what proper governmental response and civic mindedness of the populace can do.
See also: Vietnam, Korea, New Zealand
Didn’t China have huge problems with covid later when the rest of the world was pretty much done with it and the only reason the Chinese government stopped their stupid strategy was because of protests? The strategy worked well in the beginning but it went on for far too long. And the consequences were really bad.
The consequences were way better than the let 'er rip nations. If China had a death toll equivalent to the United States, they’d have 5 million dead. Even the “China is lying” people are talking about hundreds of thousands, or possibly a million, not 5 million.
Staying COVID-zero until better treatments and vaccines are available actually does save lives.
Welding up people’s doors is not a solution.
Sure, but you’re whatabouting an injustice of some people being temporarily detained to FOUR MILLION LIVES. If that was actually all it took, that’s a pretty reasonable exchange.
literally no clue wtf you’re raving about, but I’m sure it’s pro-China propaganda…