As title, if you have post or link any useful resource you have

    • Vanth@reddthat.com
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      2 months ago

      How could one convince you that your philosophical views are bad?

      • Todd Bonzalez@lemm.ee
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        2 months ago

        Sorry, I’m completely immovable on the stance that war is bad. Never once has mass human slaughter made the world a better place.

        I understand that, like everything, there are those who disagree. Moral relativism aside, those people are wrong, in the sense that I have zero tolerance for supporting campaigns of mass death.

        • Vanth@reddthat.com
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          2 months ago

          So if you have an immoveable stance against war, isn’t it just as likely someone out there believes they have a similarly immovable stance in favor of the draft?

          • Todd Bonzalez@lemm.ee
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            2 months ago

            Yeah, and that person, unlike me, is evil, because they are able to see human lives as pawns in a political game.

            • Vanth@reddthat.com
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              2 months ago

              Uh, just to be clear, I’m not actually trying to sway you. Just pointing out to OP, and to you I guess since you’re engaging, that when someone holds an “immoveable stance” as they themselves say, and aren’t open to changing their views, it is highly unlikely one can convince them to change. Like, someone could up to you and say you’re wrong and evil for your views but that probably isn’t going to convince you, right?

        • JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works
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          2 months ago

          Is every alternative preferable to war? For example, should Ukraine have agreed to become part of Russia to avoid war?

          • SLfgb@feddit.nl
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            2 months ago

            Quite a few nations capitulated against the Nazis within days or even without a fight to avoid war. It saved a lot of lives. Does that make it the right choice? Who is to say…

            What’s for sure is that Boris shouldn’t have vetoed the peace agreement in 2022.

            • JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works
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              2 months ago

              I didn’t think it saved lives, since it empowered the Nazis to kill more people. So I say no it wasn’t the right choice.

              • SLfgb@feddit.nl
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                2 months ago

                Look it’s hard to say if it saved lives in the overall ww2 tally, but surrender to save lives was the rationale of the Generals eg in The Netherlands. They looked at what the Luftwaffe had done to Rotterdam, looked at what weapons they had themselves, considered the prospect of what was going to happen to Utrecht next, and decided that further resistance was futile. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_in_World_War_II#German_occupation

                • JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works
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                  2 months ago

                  Sorry, I don’t mean to say that it killed more people in every case. I agree there are could be cases where the outcome was certain, and maintaining strength for gorilla resistance and saving population centers was likely prudent.

                  I was primarily referring to appeasement, where countries in Europe, mostly England, gave the Nazis land to avoid war.

        • Carighan Maconar@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          What kind of resources are we talking about here? Clearly it doesn’t help to make you talk to 1 person that holds contrasting views, as that seems to be your starting point. A study of 1000? A study of 100000? An empirical research over 100 years? 500? A meta analysis? 5 people talking to you about it? 10? 100?

        • Vanth@reddthat.com
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          2 months ago

          So have you tried that with the people who agree with the draft? Did you find it was convincing to them?

    • aberrate_junior_beatnik@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      We don’t have a way to do this. I don’t think we ever will. Wish the answer was different.

      The one thing I will say is that logical argument is extremely ineffective for changing people’s views. Personal, emotional stories are best. The issue is that war and the draft is already highly emotionally charged, so it’s gonna be hard to find something that will strike a nerve with someone who hasn’t already come around on it.

    • JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works
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      2 months ago

      Classically, you’d discuss their views with them and find the logical conclusions. Then you’d talk though if those ideas contradict with other ideas they hold. That sort of discussion/dialogue is basically all of Plato.

      • linearchaos@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        First you set up a news agency. You tune into their fear of inadequacy. You craft stories and spin truths to Make sure that they’re good and scared of the future of them and their family. You keep slowly chipping away until they have no problem with suspension of disbelief. You make sure that day and their friends all have the right tools to indoctrinate each other. Then you get small and big business on board by offering them tons of money to help keep everybody good and scared. You craft laws and put people in the right places in police organizations to make sure that the people you’re trying to scare them with are seen as the Boogeyman. Sure, it’s not technically forcing but it’s forcing…