When will justice be served for Palestinians?
Hopefully the second the US election is over. Afaik this Israel supporting genocidal bullshit is at least on part related to appeasing fundamentalist Christian voters of which there are a lot in the US.
Hopefully the second the US election is over. Afaik this Israel supporting genocidal bullshit is at least on part related to appeasing fundamentalist Christian voters of which there are a lot in the US.
When they boot Hamas from leading their country into oblivion.
“Stop punshing yourself” the trust fund kid said as it forced the arm into the face of their victim again, while the principal applauds the trust fund kid for his morals.
It’s not hamas that’s “leading” their country. It’s zio invaders.
Hamas only exists because of the Apartheid Occupation of Israel and the daily violence that has subjected Palestinians to for generations. Israel has always been the obstacle for peace.
De-development via the Gaza Occupation
The Israeli imposed closure on Gaza began in 1991, temporarily, becoming permanent in 1993. The barrier began around Gaza around 1972.
Between July 1971 and February 1972, Sharon enjoyed considerable success. During this time, the entire Strip (apart from the Rafah area) was sealed off by a ring of security fences 53 miles in length, with few entrypoints. Today, their effects live on: there are only three points of entry to Gaza—Erez, Nahal Oz, and Rafah.
Perhaps the most dramatic and painful aspect of Sharon’s campaign was the widening of roads in the refugee camps to facilitate military access. Israel built nearly 200 miles of security roads and destroyed thousands of refugee dwellings as part of the widening process.’ In August 1971, for example, the Israeli army destroyed 7,729 rooms (approximately 2,000 houses) in three vola- tile camps, displacing 15,855 refugees: 7,217 from Jabalya, 4,836 from Shati, and 3,802 from Rafah.
- Page 105
Through 1993 Israel imposed a one-way system of tariffs and duties on the importation of goods through its borders; leaving Israel for Gaza, however, no tariffs or other regulations applied. Thus, for Israeli exports to Gaza, the Strip was treated as part of Israel; but for Gazan exports to Israel, the Strip was treated as a foreign entity subject to various “non-tariff barriers.” This placed Israel at a distinct advantage for trading and limited Gaza’s access to Israeli and foreign markets. Gazans had no recourse against such policies, being totally unable to protect themselves with tariffs or exchange rate controls. Thus, they had to pay more for highly protected Israeli products than they would if they had some control over their own economy. Such policies deprived the occupied territories of significant customs revenue, estimated at $118-$176 million in 1986. (Arguably, the economic terms of the Gaza—Jericho Agreement modify the situation only slightly.')
- page 240
In a report released in May 2015, the World Bank revealed that as a result of Israel’s blockade and OPE, Gaza’s manufacturing sector shrank by as much as 60 percent over eight years while real per capita income is 31 percent lower than it was 20 years ago. The report also stated that the blockade alone is responsible for a 50 percent decrease in Gaza’s GDP since 2007. Furthermore, OPE (com- bined with the tunnel closure) exacerbated an already grave situation by reducing Gaza’s economy by an additional $460 million.
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Page 402
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The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-Development - Third Edition by Sara M. Roy
Blockade, including Aid
Hamas began twenty years into the occupation during the first Intifada, with the goal of ending the occupation. Collective punishment has been a deliberate Israeli tactic for decades with the Dahiya doctrine. Violence such as suicide bombings and rockets escalated in response to Israeli enforcement of the occupation and apartheid.
After the ‘disengagement’ in 2007, this turned into a full blockade; where Israel has had control over the airspace, borders, and sea. Under the guise of ‘dual-use’ Israel has restricted food, allocating a minimum supply leading to over half of Gaza being food insecure; construction materials, medical supplies, and other basic necessities have also been restricted.
The blockade and Israel’s repeated military offensives have had a heavy toll on Gaza’s essential infrastructure and further debilitated its health system and economy, leaving the area in a state of perpetual humanitarian crisis. Indeed, Israel’s collective punishment of Gaza’s civilian population, the majority of whom are children, has created conditions inimical to human life due to shortages of housing, potable water and electricity, and lack of access to essential medicines and medical care, food, educational equipment and building materials.
- Amnesty International Report pg 26-27
Settlements, Occupation, and Apartheid
Israel justifies the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.
This type of settlement, where the native population gets ‘Transferred’ to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice.
- The Transfer Committee, and the JNF Ethnic Cleansing, which led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate before the Nakba
The mass ethnic cleansing campaign of 1948:
Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967:
While the peace process was exploited to continue de-facto annexation of the West Bank via Settlements
The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.
The apartheid regime is based on organized, systemic violence against Palestinians, which is carried out by numerous agents: the government, the military, the Civil Administration, the Supreme Court, the Israel Police, the Israel Security Agency, the Israel Prison Service, the Israel Nature and Parks Authority, and others. Settlers are another item on this list, and the state incorporates their violence into its own official acts of violence. Settler violence sometimes precedes instances of official violence by Israeli authorities, and at other times is incorporated into them. Like state violence, settler violence is organized, institutionalized, well-equipped and implemented in order to achieve a defined strategic goal.
Visualizing the Ethnic Cleansing
Peace Process and Solution
Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
One State Solution, Foreign Affairs
Hamas proposed a full prisoner swap as early as Oct 8th, and agreed to the US proposed UN Permanent Ceasefire Resolution. Additionally, Hamas has already agreed to no longer govern the Gaza Strip, as long as Palestinians receive liberation and a unified government can take place.
During the current war, Hamas officials have said that the group does not want to return to ruling Gaza and that it advocates for forming a government of technocrats to be agreed upon by the various Palestinian factions. That government would then prepare for elections in Gaza and the West Bank, with the intention of forming a unified government.
Yes, Hamas that was elected as a minority party, and took over in a coup before about half of the pre genocide population was even born. The people living in a permanent refugee camp should rise up and destroy the Iranian backed terrorist group. They will accomplish this with all of the supplies that are allowed to come in. I’m sure I just took the bait but I hear actual people make that same argument.
Kind of hard to vote out assholes if they stopped elections in 2006. It’s like if W never left power.
Vote out? More like demolish.
We were told he was fortified in a tunnel network surrounded by bodyguards and hostages as human shields, like some terrorist mastermind.
He is killed running alone from one bombed out house to another, by a soldier that didn’t even recognize him.
Not saying he shouldn’t have been killed, but it really shows the false pretenses under which this ‘war’ is being carried out.
Yeah it shows that Hamas is nearly defeated. They should obviously surrender and put an end to the bloodshed. But people in these radical movements tend to want to fight to the death, no matter how many bystanders they get killed with their bullshit.
He wasn’t alone. He was with several armed men and apparently also with hostages.
The IDF said there were no hostages in the building with Sinwar. I see you going around everywhere spreading Israeli propaganda on Lemmy.
The first line of that article is
Without citing a source, Channel 12 reports…
Please try harder. There are people dying because of misinformation.
Ok, but was any of that know when soldiers opened fire, or was it all established after the event.
Is it justice if it’s done by an unjust party for unjust reasons?
Like, no mourning for Sinwar here, but fuck, Israel icing him isn’t exactly what I’d be throwing ticker tape in the streets over.
I can’t read the whole article, but maybe she’s seeing this as an opportunity to get Israel to dial the conflict down. Probably naive to think they’ll stop for anything at this stage though, because they’ve shown it was never about the hostages to begin with.
Why would Israel dial down the conflict when they just took out another obstacle in their march to settle all of Gaza and the West Bank and part or all of Lebanon?
Exactly.
Israel didn’t settle Lebanon during their last occupation and they won’t this time either. The West Bank is already a very big headache.
Is that why they’re airing property listings in southern lebanon?
Meeting for govt officials to discuss settling in Gaza
That’s only some extremists, not an official plan.
How much rebuking has the Israeli government done of these extremists?
Yes that is the party line for now, then it will be lebensraum.
Imagine the privilege of thinking that ethnic cleansing is a “headache”.
It has been an unresolved political issue for decades. Israel doesn’t have a clear strategy for it. Maybe you like quagmire better.
I suspect that’s what she thinks she’s doing, but I wish politicians didn’t speak in code. Just say that she expects Israel to reduce the level of conflict now. That way Israel can’t take it as a endorsement of their future actions.
I feel it is more in the lines of ‘Justice is served’ justifying the genocide and continuing support of US if the genocide continues.
Israel knows it is needed by US and Arab countries as an deterrent to Iran. And it is going to press the advantage to the extremes.
Sinwar was seen as a big impediment to any deal. Usually just he would decide to walk away from talks, as opposed to a whole delegation like the other parties. Anyway, after being imprisoned for 20 years, several of them in solitary, and writing a book glorifying martyrdom, it seems that he was fully committed to the long term struggle against the Jew and removing him may help end this genocide.
removing him may help end this genocide.
You see, now that it’s absolutely impossible for him to do anything at all, he may stop doing certain things
That is bullshit. Hamas has repeatedly agreed to the Biden proposal and even offered a ceasefire deal with hostage exchange as early as October 2023.
It was Netanyahu always sabotaging the negotiations. In particular after the Biden plan by rejecting to leave Gaza and bombing tents in Rafah, burning people alive.
Also Sinwar wasn’t even the negotiator. It was Hanyeh, who got assassinated by Israel, while negotiations were running. A clearer sign of not wanting to negotiate does not exist.
I agree netanyahu’s delegation has walked away multiple times but hamas has too. Sinwar was not the negotiator, he was the military commander on the ground so even when the hamas delegation would make progress all decisions on what goes on in Gaza went through him. He wanted a war and was (at least outwardly, judging by his writing) happy to be martyred.
I am not saying Israel is a good or consistent negotiator in this but Sinwar was a terrorist who was keeping hostages as insurance. He decided to do the attack on 10/7. This was a decision he could not get backing for from his benefactors (as far as has been reported.)
Netanyahu knows that the US will not cut off support for them. It’s not even seriously discussed in the MSM. Bibi will continue to massacre the Palestinians until they are all displaced or dead. This is the only way he is staying in power. His alliance depends on settlers and other orthodox. That being said, maybe more western countries start pressuring him, cutting aid, air dropping food or something now that Hamas’ leadership is being degraded.
Israel has rejected all ceasefire resolutions that would require a permanent peace, like the 3-stage UN Resolution put forth by the US. Hamas has only rejected ceasefire resolutions that would only be temporary, meaning Israel would continue the genocide after they take the hostages, or where Israel wants to continue occupying Gaza, which isn’t peace. Kinda hard to ‘both sides’ the peace negotiations when it’s very clearly one sided.
Gaza has never experienced peace, nor has the West Bank, there is no peace living under the daily violence of an Apartheid State.
removing him may help end this genocide.
Genocide ends only in two conditions. Either the population is decimated or the genocide conducting party is no longer in power.
It doesn’t seem likely Netanyahu will be removed in the near future. There is however the other possibility.
Just like it would be if Netanyahu was assassinated.
Now that “Justice has been served” I take it that US support for this war will be pulled and the Israelis will pack up and return back across the borders to go home?
V-E day happened about a month after Hitler killed himself.
Fascists will tend to fight a little longer even after their strongman leader is dead. And Sinwar didn’t off himself, he died fighting so that could be used for propaganda purposes by Hamas.
But after a few months of fighting in the ruins where their homes used to be and without the strongman leader they’ll begin to question what they’re even fighting for.
Most fascist movements just fade away over time, but sometimes this is how fascism has to be defeated.
For clarity, in this comparison of yours to WW2, hamas are the fascists?
Hamas is a group that’s anti-democracy, lead by a strongman (or at least it was), whose political goals are centered around blood and soil, ethnic cleansing and genocide. They tick all of the fascist boxes.
yeah it probably would’ve helped to bring in hamas leaders alive and in custody. seems sorta like israel’s strategy is weirdly not about bringing a timely end to the fighting
Sure in an ideal world Sinwar would be put on trial. But it didn’t look like Sinwar was going to turn himself in peacefully.
I’m glad this fuck is dead but jesus fuck, can we stop killing civilians for nothing?
Lest this be taken the wrong way: Harris 2024, fuck the republican traitor filth.
Now I’m sure how white people talked about our freedom fighters like Bhagat singh and subhash chandra bose.
don’t worry, white people have never thought about either of them
I meant at the time of rapid colonialism across the world. Also Bhagat Singh was executed on charges of “terrorism” and yet he is celebrated as a fierce freedom fighter since our Independence.
Can Hamas stop holding civilians hostage for nothing?
That comparison is disgusting and you are beyond help.
Hamas releasing the hostages would end the war. Why do you find the prospect of this war ending to be disgusting?
Israel has thousands of innocent civilians in their prisons, a lot of them children. No hamas doesnt need to release the hostages until israel does it first.
Sinwar was released in a previous deal. Then he plotted a genocide. A real genocide not the bullshit rebranding of a war as a genocide that’s a common narrative around here.
Sinwar was found and killed outside of his bunker with only two guards, probably scrounging for food. Why would Israel want to potentially release another Sinwar? Why would they want to give Hamas new reinforcements for their next attempt at genocide?
Hamas needs to surrender unconditionally. It’s over, they committed genocide, and now their cities are destroyed. But like how the Nazis continued on for another month after Hitler offed himself, they’ll probably continue on for a while longer. It can take a little time for people indoctrinated into fascist beliefs to understand they lost. They believe themselves to be supermen that can still somehow destroy the enemy even when it’s obvious to anyone else that they lost.
Stfu nazi
Peculiar how Kamala’s stance on Israel / Palestine shifted after she became the presidential candidate. It’s almost if there’s like a powerful group of people preventing politicians that are critical towards Israel from gaining influence. Probably just some crazy conspiracy theory bullshit though.
AI buddy, you can just PACk up those conspiracy theories and leave.
pretty sure a lot of people’s stances went one way or the other last october, do you have some comment from her between oct 2023 and aug 2024?
“or our interests…”
that hegemony talk sure is something.
Fantastic, if we go by the standards of OBL, Israel might actually decide to leave Gaza by the year 2033.
Of course that’s based off the assumption Israel’s goals in Gaza are the same as the USA in Afghanistan, which last I checked, there was never a US led genocide in Afghanistan.
According to Al Jazeera, 241,000 people died in the war in Afghanistan.
And remember that very little fighting in Afghanistan happened in urban environments.
Both Afghanistan and Gaza are wars. The only difference is you weren’t being sent videos from the Taliban during the war in Afghanistan.
That’s the most disgusting, sick and twisted interpretation of justice I can imagine. Monsters and psychopaths the lot of them.
Killing a terrorist leader is not justice? How?
It’s like saying justice was served when Nat Turner was killed for his deadly revolt against slave owners. Justice will be served when the colonization end and israelis leaders who still alive and responsible for atrocities against Palestinians
You’re comparing terrorists with freedom fighters now?
Fighting against a colonizer is not resistance? Hamas terror operations like the 7 of October do not strip them from the title of resistance. Look at history and you’ll see many atrocities committed by resistance group like In June 1857, during the siege of Kanpur, the rebels led by Nana Sahib promised safe passage to British soldiers, women, and children who had surrendered. However, as they were being evacuated, the boats carrying them were attacked, and most were killed. Around 120 women and children who survived were taken as prisoners. Lack of justice bring the worst of human being can do? The only solution for the end of violence is ending the colonization
I disagree. It absolutely DOES strip them off the title of resistance.
Crazy that this even needs to be said.
You conveniently ignore everything else that makes Hamas a jihadist terrorist organization with no redeemable qualities. It deserves no sympathy or even acknowledgement and it has forfeited any right to existence through the sheer monstrosity of their ideals and actions.
I gave two examples of atrocities committed by the oppressed due to the lack of justice and acknowledged Hamas attorcities. Tell me who’s going to fight against the IDF destroying Gaza right now if you think Hamas shouldn’t exists. I think they should exists till the occupation end than both the remaining leaders of Israel and Hamas are brought to justice
Nah you’re comparing accidents and collateral damage to pure jihadist terrorism. I’m sorry but that’s just incredibly stupid and you should be ashamed of your stance.
What is in jihad that is so evil to you? Do you see it inferior to western military terrorism because it spares women and children? Because it does not allow carpet bombing?
The fact that you even dare to ask “what’s so evil” about a brain virus that requires suicide murder of innocent to appease some invisible, unverifyable and frankly disgusting idea of a god is just mind blowing. You should really re-evaluate your world model and I sincerely hope you get better.
There is no terrorism against the settler-colonial genocide regime. Israel is not better because their violence is more formal and systematic. Resistance by Palestine is valid in any form given it’s position. Whatever worthless criticism you may have of the means of Palestinian resistance should be blamed on the Israeli regime for forcing them to this point.
Reading recommendation: “Wretched of the Earth” by Frantz Fanon
The regime was not attacked on October 7th. Those were innocent people that were taken hostage.
It in no way justifies Israel’s genocide or the apartheid that happened before it, but you’re acting like the hostages were running the government until October 7th.
About one third of the Israelis killed and taken hostage on October 7 were active duty IDF soldiers. That doesn’t excuse the terrorist attacks on Civilians but it is important to point out that Israel has a much worse combatant to civilians killed ratio than Hamas or Hezbollah.
That is not fair. “Active duty IDF soldier” is everyone in Israel once they reach a certain age. Even the ultra-orthodox are no longer exempt.
You’re talking about 18-year-olds who were conscripted taking some R&R to go to a music festival.
Again, this doesn’t excuse anything that has happened subsequently or anything Israel did before either, but it’s not like we’re talking senior leadership here.
Soldiers in military bases along the border fence are not taking some R&R going to a music festival.
And if they are armed at the border of a region they siege, being 18 years old is not an excuse not to be considered a soldier.
Some of them were taking R&R, some were along the border fence.
When every single person in your country is required to be a soldier when they turn 18, I don’t think suggesting they’re fair game in a situation like what happened in October 7th.
If they’re actively fighting, that’s a different story. But they weren’t. The people sending them to war should be the targets considering they do not have a choice in the matter.
I assume you don’t blame Russian conscripts for the war in Ukraine despite that also involving genocide.
That is not fair. “Active duty IDF soldier” is everyone in Israel once they reach a certain age.
It’s completely fair to judge a fascist society by their fascism.
Do we excuse the nazis because many were indoctrinated as nazi youths? No of course not. It might give us some understanding and compassion but it’s a completely fair judgement to say it’s a sick society.
How do you know they have been indoctrinated?
That’s like saying Vietnam vets supported that war.
If someone kills your family and steals your house, is it terrorism to take it back?
Were the people they killed and kidnapped the ones who killed their family and stole their house?
Yes. Technically yes. Anyone with a jewish ancestry can claim aliyah and travel to israel. You can’t host so many people without replacing existing ones. It’s the 21st century. Everyone knows how israel came into existence and what they are doing now. So yeah.
Are you claiming Jew = Israeli? Because that would be both a lie and very bigoted of you.
So you should probably clarify that to me now what with it being a violation of rule 4 if that’s what you meant.
Let me just redirect your whole comment back to:
Resistance by Palestine is valid in any form given it’s position. Whatever worthless criticism you may have of the means of Palestinian resistance should be blamed on the Israeli regime for forcing them to this point.
The oppressed do not have the luxury of precise and swift strikes against their oppressors. We do not get to judge the systematically and brutally disadvantaged Palestine and it’s resistance not being able to capture the core government out from behind one of the most advanced militaries on the planet (backed by one of the others).
All resistance on their part is justified. And insofar as any of those deaths may have been regrettable, they should be held against the settler-colonial regime for forcing this situation into existence.
Israel’s violence against Palestine is enormously unequal, disgustingly normalized, and systematically devastating. This has been going on for decades. To sit there and finger wag them fighting back is arrogant and frankly further enabling the situation. “Oh you deserve liberation and justice but only if you do it the right and proper way!” As if they can face such an overwhelmingly unfair fight as equals.
Palestinian violence is but a reflection of Israeli violence and all fault and consequences from it lay unequivocally at the feet of Israel.
Resistance by Palestine is valid in any form given it’s position.
In any form? So if some Palestinian person went through a maternity ward stomping on babies’ heads as a form of resistance, you’d be okay with that? Really?
That would hardly be different than genocidal war crimes done to Palestinians by the IDF.
Palestinians would almost certainly never make it to the hospital before being gunned down, whereas Israel can march in an army to perpetuate such atrocities with relative ease.
But sure, if such a thing happened you’d not find me condemning it. Israeli colonialism and genocide would be to blame for it. If Israeli violence stopped, so too would Palestinian violence. Israel has the power here unfortunately.
You do realize that, based on what you’ve said so far, you’re also saying that an acceptable resistance to genocide is genocide. I hope you realize that anyway.
Bro, with that attitude “everything is justified against Israel”, it’s guaranteed that the conflict will still exist in 100 years. That’s the right attitude to get as many people as possible killed there.
Can’t believe people are defending Hamas with a straight face. Trully crazy times we’re living in.
Disgusting to read that…
Resistence against the oppressor is maybe destroying the fence, taking land from the oppressor, shooting rockets on military and state buildings and killing or hurting solidiers.
Setting civilians on fire, making a festival of civilians a massacre and kidnapping over 100 civilians is just T E R R O R I S M.
What about setting civilians on fire, massacring tens of thousands of kids, and kidnapping thousands of people? T E R R O R I S M.
“But they murder babies so why can’t we? Uwu”
I’m not here to deffend Israel. I’m just here to tell you that resistence is the wrong word for Hamas. They are a pain in the ass for Israel and for their own people.
Exactly and I’m getting seriously worried Lemmy is going the way of every other reddit clone that have been captured by extremists.
I never thought I’d live in a world where people would be defending Hamas. It’s pure insanity.
There’s no sympathy for Hamas and they will forever be forgotten as anything but human refuse. Anyone who can’t agree with this simple statement doesn’t deserve to be listened.
You don’t think harris is a terrorist leader also?
Because hail Trump I guess
BREAKING NEWS
People disgusted with war aren’t automatically pro-trump.
Justice isnt served until Netenyahu and biden are being frog marched in chains and striped pajamas at the hague.
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