See, on the one hand you're validly calling out sensationalism and propaganda, but on the other you're kind of going further the other way. She wasn't kidnapped, she was murdered and her corpse mutilated, paraded and spat on. And it isn't her vs 100s of murdered Palestinians, she is but a figurehead representing hundreds dead in Israel.
In any case, tallying up which side did what and who was worse really isn't productive here, it won't lead to any useful kind of resolution. The issue isn't what they do, because at this point they've pretty much done it all before. The issue is that people on both sides keep doing it.
Agreed. There's only one solution. The UN needs to disarm both sides, depose their governments and make the whole area a UN protectorate. Remove any illegal settlements. Try anyone on both sides involved in war crimes or human rights violations.
Israel and Palestine can not behave like grown ups? Take away their toys and put them in time out.
Israel is a way more prosper place than Palestine and hence its people have way more to lose if the country is placed under sanctions, its companies cut off from trading with the West and its members of governament personally held accountable internationally.
(Basically they're susceptible to the same kind of pressure that forced the authorities in South Africa to end Apartheid and have genuinelly democratic elections)
Those who have the most to lose are the easiest to convince, which is also why, on the other side, not even treating Hamas as a terrorist organisation (which is an even harder thing than "mere" sanctions) has stopped them from finding "soldiers" - as long as Israel makes sure those born in Palestine have nothing to lose, for many even joining an organisation internationally viewed as terrorist is still a step-up in life.
If you pardon my language (but I think the situation deserves it), it's quite paradoxical that the International community has to fuck up Israel enough so that they stop fucking up the life of Palestinians so much, to the point that the lives of said Palestinians improves enough that they end up having enough to lose from siding with or joining Hamas (which is alread being fucked up).
Then again, maybe it's not a paradox: look at how the only way to stop a similar bully, Russia, requires "fucking them up" in that way (being more integrated with the West, not having natural resources like that, and being a whole lot more democratic (even if imperfectly so) Israel would be a lot easier to sway away from acting as a bully.
As far as I can see, it's either that or the genocide of Palestinians and I would hope that not even in this day and age and not even if it's one of the "slow boiling" kind, most people in the West would be ok with a genocide.
Yeah, nobody has quite the strength even for these two sides. First, war is not a linear application of resources, it's unpredictable. Second, that'd be a precedent every nation with conflicts would try to prevent, and such nations are usually the strongest. Third, we've all seen over the years how well UN missions, peacekeepers etc work.
This is the most historically ignorant comment I've seen this past week. There have been multiple wars in the past century where Arab nations were the aggressor and had the stated goal of genociding the Jews in Israel. Also, the last time the UN actually did something approaching that scale was the Korean War. Absolutely nothing since. They're incapable of defending an entire nation.
Any plan that involves the disarmament of Israel is just a plan for genocide. Educate yourself, you're unbelievably ignorant yet you have access to the internet.
Yes? Terrorists from neighboring countries already attack Israel, a vastly stronger military force than they are. We literally just saw Hamas terrorists gladly launch themselves into suicide attacks to hurt Israel. There are multiple nations near Israel (i.e. Iran) that don't give a fuck about the UN.
It doesn't have to be an organized military from a sovereign nation to attack and kill hundreds or thousands. If you want to actually stop the regional violence you would need to disarm the entire Middle East.
The arrogance of thinking indefinite bombing and killing will get you what you want.
I'm not saying it will be easy, but if the world doesn't enforce something endless cycle of killing will never stop. Neither side is interested in anything other than extermination now. Not acting will result in some form of genocide. You could say one is already underway.
You're acting like we're just talking about "actions" that people are "doing."
What you're ignoring is the apartheid society created by Israel. They're directly responsible for the conditions that foster this type of response.
This isn't a "both sides are just as bad" thing. One of these groups has been horrifically oppressed and kept in the largest open-air prison on the planet for nearly 100 years. Any time Hamas has attacked Israeli soldiers (you know, because they're literally kicking them out of their family homes they've lived in for generations. Which is genocide btw), Israel has responded by slaughtering hundreds to thousands of Palestinian (not Hamas) civilians. It's completely disproportionate.
I'm not defending or justifying, just trying to explain.
It seems to fit to you because your initial operating assumption is that you should support the terrorists here and everything else you believe is distorted to meet those expectations.
For instance, Israel told the civilians to move to the city of 120k people that is called a refugee camp, but is in fact a full on 80 year old city, and fourteen people died in an airstrike on a Hamas position.
But you didn't Google the city "camp" or look past the claims at all, because your initial assumption is "Israel bad, Hamas good."
You are indeed defending terrorists who kill families of civilians with no overarching military goal in mind at all.
It seems to fit to you because your initial operating assumption is that you should support the terrorists here and everything else you believe is distorted to meet those expectations.
You know nothing about me, and fuck you for making an accusation like that. Shameful.
Terrorism is indeed when you kill civilians with no military aim in mind. Invading a country specifically to murder their families in their homes is absolutely terrorism.
Invading a country specifically to murder their families in their homes is absolutely terrorism.
by this definition every colonizer is a terrorist, which means that the israelis are terrorists. maybe we just shouldn't use the term, and instead condemn bad actions and bad actors on the merits of the actions without the political label.
A child being collaterally hit in an air strike or as part of an ongoing military campaign is not at all equivalent to beheading babies because you want to exterminate Jews.
Both are bad, in the way that stepping on a rusty nail and being hit by a train are both bad, and they are similarly not equivalent.
I wasn't really ignoring it, merely addressing the point that was raised.
I've said this elsewhere, but going through and trying to tally up who's done what and which side is worse is pretty much a futile exercise. It won't lead to any useful resolution. They've been going at it for so long, both sides have done horrific things that were disproportionate responses to the other side. They've pretty much done it all. The bigger issue is less what they do, more that they both keep doing it.
They've been going at it for so long, both sides have done horrific things that were disproportionate responses to the other side.
This just is not true. There is a massively imbalanced power dynamic there. They've been keeping the Palestinian population in an open-air prison for at least half a century. They're literally incapable of responding disproportionately to what Israel is constantly doing to them. They don't have the resources or freedom of movement.
Just look up the casualty statistics on both sides since at least since the end of WW2. It's been some time since I've looked at them, but we're talking at least one (possibly more) order of magnitude difference between the two.
They’re literally incapable of responding disproportionately to what Israel is constantly doing to them.
I would say raiding towns and villages and beheading babies is a disproportionate response to anything.
There is definitely a power imbalance, and Israel has probably killed more Palestinians overall than the other way around. However, Israel have also shown some measure of restraint up until now - they've never completely eradicated Palestine, as Palestinians frequently claim to want for Israelis and have previously attempted to do, even though Israel actually could. Israel has definitely not shown enough restraint, but they've shown more than they would likely face if the balance of power was the other way around.
There's also the twisted mess of politics. Members of the government of Israel have at many times over the years promoted the support of terrorist groups in Palestine as a way of destabilising Palestine as a nation. So, even while the actions of Hamas on Saturday were horrific and unforgiveable, some Israelis have actively been encouraging this kind of thing.
Like I say, tallying up who's done what doesn't really get you anywhere. Both have done horrific and unforgiveable things. It's like comparing shit covered apples to shit covered oranges, you can talk about the differences as much as you like - and you might even be correct in everything you say - but at the end of the day the biggest problem is that they're both covered in shit.
The IDF are no saints. They've done some awful awful things. Including targeting clearly marked medics and press, and murdering children for throwing rocks at them.
Yep, it is relatively easy to find video of IDF humiliating and torturing young people at checkpoints or around their home in the most cowardly manner on earth, seriously it was hard to see.
As her mother is calling for news about her I'll go with her belief of "not dead" until proven otherwise given how the poor girl has been turned into a - as you so well put - "figurehead" for propaganda. I confess I'm one of those weird people who prefers to believe that others are merelly "kidnapped" rather than dead.
I'm glad you're beginning to start to get my point about the use of figureheads to make the smaller number of people murderer on one side seem more disgusting to a western audience than the much larger number of deaths on the other side. That's exactly how propaganda works: turn individual humans into symbols and parade their horrible fate as justification to kill lots of those "other" humans most of whom are blamed by association.
I'm disgusted that a few days ago some terrorists attacked a music festival and killed hundreds and you're defending the terrorists. It sounds like you've been taken in by some propaganda yourself.
If condemning terrorists attacking innocent people at a music festival means I'm a product of propaganda, then so be it.
You're absolutelly right in condemning terrorist attacks like that one.
All terrorist attacks should be condemned, including ordering people to shelter in a specific place and bombing them as describe here.
If your condemnation is indeed Principled, then all such acts of murder for the purposed of terrifying the rest are equally repugnant and you'll condemn them equally no matter the "side" of those who did such disgusting acts.
As Principle seems to be notably absent in how so many commenters have tackled the subject matter (with only some murders being important, not others, depending on which "side" did it), I pointed it out.
Let's not forget that the act of using civilians as shields is a warcrime in the first place to prevent this kind of situation from occurring.
If Israel tells Palestinian civilians to evacuate because there's Hamas military targets in that building, and Hamas troops tell them no. Then they die, and Hamas can cry wolf.
It would be Israel who is following international decorem and Hamas making it difficult for any country to support them.
Just now, Austria cut off aid to the Gaza region. Is that Israel's fault? Nope.
Hamas had good PR going and they fucked it up by escalating with brutality.
I'm not justifying anything that Israel has done in the past. The main point of my comment is that Hamas made a really poor decision here on behalf of the Palestinians. There is absolutely no doubt.
There is no moralizing or whataboutism.
The fact of the matter is that this caused a divided Israel to unite in anger. And support for Palestine has been cut by all European nations and Australia. Palestinian sympathizers and charity leaders have been among the victims.
The question you should be asking is if you support the Palestinian people is…
What the actual hell is this bonehead decision-making by Hamas? There is no scenario of success in this endeavor unless the Western world decided to withdraw all support from Israel and give it to Hamas.
Was that going to happen? No. Hamas never tried to establish good diplomatic relations with anyone.
The world stage is a democratic club, and Hamas rejected it all. Hamas burned every single bridge with other countries no matter how many citizens of those governments complain.
Okay I'll answer you. It's wrong for Israel to cut power to civilians. It's right for Israel to cut power to military targets.
If military targets embed their infrastructure with civilian infrastructure. Oopsies. Civilians are now military targets.
Palestinians MAYBE shouldn't have Hamas in power if they're going to power their military operations with civilian power. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Every world power knows that, that's why most have pretty much gotten behind Israel, regardless of any apartheid Israel has done.
The US did the same thing when 9/11 happened. The US did the same thing in Operation Desert Storm along with other NATO countries who joined the US in operations in the middle east.
Nobody in the west complained then, and nobody's complaining now, because Hamas did the dumb dumb.
If military targets embed their infrastructure with civilian infrastructure. Oopsies. Civilians are now military targets.
NO! What the fuck NO! Even if that was true it's disgusting but Israel routinely lies about the presence of Hamas and then never even bothers to doctor proof.
Every world power knows that, that’s why most have pretty much gotten behind Israel, regardless of any apartheid Israel has done.
Lol nah, its because the US and UK use Israel as a FOB. That's it. It's strategically advantageous so they will get behind any lie Israel makes up that helps them keep it as a base.
Nobody in the west complained then, and nobody’s complaining now, because Hamas did the dumb dumb.
Yes they did. Bro lie through your teeth more. And you act like what the US did after 9/11 was a good thing? It fucking wasn't. WE ALL KNOW THAT NOW. We accept that Bush did war crimes. No one argues about that. We don't do anything about it but we all look back and are like "wow that was really fucked up"
Literally the first thing the US does in any engagement is cut the power.
It's not a war crime lol
With certain limitations, parts of a country's electrical grid can be considered legitimate targets if they are used to power military facilities. This is true even if the targets have a civilian as well as a military purpose, so long as destroying the object would "offer a definite military advantage"
Israeli authorities' cutting off electricity to Gaza and other punitive measures against Gaza's civilian population would amount to unlawful collective punishment, which is a war crime, said the Human Rights Watch on 9 October.
As if the US gives a single fuck about war crimes. If we did, at least 5 people from George W. Bush's administration would be rotting in prison right now.
That terrorist attack has already happened, and there's another terrorist attack underway, this time with cassette munitions and white phosphorus and in general very different capabilities, done by another side.
Attacking kids at a music festival? Or attacking a terrorist organization? Your false equivalency is despicable.
Just admit it. You hate Jewish people. Stop pretending there is some moral equivalent for Hamas attacking and indiscriminately killing innocent people, and Israel trying to stamp out an entrenched terror cell that is using their people as meat shields to somehow manipulate people like you into thinking they're the good guys. 🙄
Why do you keep posting nonsense? Anything about me anybody can judge for themselves from my comments. You look like a moron. Things don't become your way just cause you say so.
The Israeli-German girl is apparently still alive and in criticial condition in the Indonesian hospital in Gaza. She wasn't murdered (though of course she could still succumb to whatever was done to her).
See, on the one hand you’re validly calling out sensationalism and propaganda, but on the other you’re kind of going further the other way. She wasn’t kidnapped, she was murdered and her corpse mutilated, paraded and spat on. And it isn’t her vs 100s of murdered Palestinians, she is but a figurehead representing hundreds dead in Israel.
You know, google for "Anush Apetyan" and consider that Israel is Azerbaijan's main military supplier after Russia, and almost an ally, and nothing from what Azerbaijani troops are doing (just the same Hamas stuff) seems to have any effect.
Also Israel is a genocide-denier state. Israelis on the Web like to behave all cynical and realpolitik-enjoying and "what are you going to do" on subjects similar to what Hamas has done in Sderot etc.
I'd say there is an element of crocodile tears in this.
Action should be taken to prevent anybody doing anything like this again, to Israelis or anybody else, but that doesn't mean Israel somehow got moral. Promoting that would be exploiting events for propaganda.
Action should be taken to prevent anybody doing anything like this again, to Israelis or anybody else, but that doesn’t mean Israel somehow got moral. Promoting that would be exploiting events for propaganda.
Absolutely agreed. Israel is justified in some measure of response, to prevent future attacks and rescue hostages. They are not justified in the bombing of Gaza that they've been doing instead.
The point I was making though is that using Shani Louk as some kind of figurehead is in no way disingenuous. It's somewhat unfair that Palestine doesn't have similar figureheads of their own to garner support (and indeed this is a direct result of Israel blocking media access), but that doesn't mean that what happened to Shani isn't a valid symbol of everything that was wrong with the attack on Saturday.
No, the reason it's not productive to dig through all the atrocities is that, provided you keep at least something of an open mind, you'll quickly get sick of both sides and not even want to bother finding any solution.
Both sides have indiscriminately murdered civillians and children. They might have done it in different ways, one side might have managed to kill more than the other, but they've both done barbaric things.
I don't support either "side" in this.
“Why can’t we all come together and forget the 6+ decades of horrific oppression and wildly disproportionate warfare, and all just get along?”
This kind of strawman statement confirms that you aren't arguing in good faith, you've only come here to spew bullshit.
See, on the one hand you're validly calling out sensationalism and propaganda, but on the other you're kind of going further the other way. She wasn't kidnapped, she was murdered and her corpse mutilated, paraded and spat on. And it isn't her vs 100s of murdered Palestinians, she is but a figurehead representing hundreds dead in Israel.
In any case, tallying up which side did what and who was worse really isn't productive here, it won't lead to any useful kind of resolution. The issue isn't what they do, because at this point they've pretty much done it all before. The issue is that people on both sides keep doing it.
Agreed. There's only one solution. The UN needs to disarm both sides, depose their governments and make the whole area a UN protectorate. Remove any illegal settlements. Try anyone on both sides involved in war crimes or human rights violations.
Israel and Palestine can not behave like grown ups? Take away their toys and put them in time out.
A foreign military occupation of an entire region in the Middle East to ensure peace.
Does anyone remember how this one goes?
I'll take standing under a mission accomplished banner on an aircraft carrier for $200.
Absolutely agree. The two sides need to be separated and put in time out.
However disarming Israel is politically impossible when they're a cyber weapons super power.
Israel is a way more prosper place than Palestine and hence its people have way more to lose if the country is placed under sanctions, its companies cut off from trading with the West and its members of governament personally held accountable internationally.
(Basically they're susceptible to the same kind of pressure that forced the authorities in South Africa to end Apartheid and have genuinelly democratic elections)
Those who have the most to lose are the easiest to convince, which is also why, on the other side, not even treating Hamas as a terrorist organisation (which is an even harder thing than "mere" sanctions) has stopped them from finding "soldiers" - as long as Israel makes sure those born in Palestine have nothing to lose, for many even joining an organisation internationally viewed as terrorist is still a step-up in life.
If you pardon my language (but I think the situation deserves it), it's quite paradoxical that the International community has to fuck up Israel enough so that they stop fucking up the life of Palestinians so much, to the point that the lives of said Palestinians improves enough that they end up having enough to lose from siding with or joining Hamas (which is alread being fucked up).
Then again, maybe it's not a paradox: look at how the only way to stop a similar bully, Russia, requires "fucking them up" in that way (being more integrated with the West, not having natural resources like that, and being a whole lot more democratic (even if imperfectly so) Israel would be a lot easier to sway away from acting as a bully.
As far as I can see, it's either that or the genocide of Palestinians and I would hope that not even in this day and age and not even if it's one of the "slow boiling" kind, most people in the West would be ok with a genocide.
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Ohh hey we’re just being openly racist to Muslims again? What is it 2002?
It's all over Lemmy. It's clearly allowed.
That doesn't mean ignoring them is the correct answer.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!! …oh, you're serious.
I mean they can also just keep bombing and torturing each other for the next 100 years, it's been working so well so far.
Sadly, as history shows, humans actually keep doing just about that.
Yeah, nobody has quite the strength even for these two sides. First, war is not a linear application of resources, it's unpredictable. Second, that'd be a precedent every nation with conflicts would try to prevent, and such nations are usually the strongest. Third, we've all seen over the years how well UN missions, peacekeepers etc work.
This is the most historically ignorant comment I've seen this past week. There have been multiple wars in the past century where Arab nations were the aggressor and had the stated goal of genociding the Jews in Israel. Also, the last time the UN actually did something approaching that scale was the Korean War. Absolutely nothing since. They're incapable of defending an entire nation.
Any plan that involves the disarmament of Israel is just a plan for genocide. Educate yourself, you're unbelievably ignorant yet you have access to the internet.
EDIT: Purposefully murder dozens of babies? Coexistence is possible!
You think their neighbors are going to attack a multinational UN taskforce? I don't think you have the right to call anyone ignorant honestly.
Yes? Terrorists from neighboring countries already attack Israel, a vastly stronger military force than they are. We literally just saw Hamas terrorists gladly launch themselves into suicide attacks to hurt Israel. There are multiple nations near Israel (i.e. Iran) that don't give a fuck about the UN.
It doesn't have to be an organized military from a sovereign nation to attack and kill hundreds or thousands. If you want to actually stop the regional violence you would need to disarm the entire Middle East.
Ofcourse Iran cares about the UN. You think they don't know what will happen if they blow up a few German or American peacekeepers?
You think Bibi's policy of concentration camps and mass bombing is going to improve things? It's worked so well so far.
The arrogance to think anybody would shy away from attacking "a UN taskforce".
You know, PKs get killed all the time. UN employees get killed. Everybody gets killed.
You think it's going to be different here? Or you are just ignorant of how this works cause it's not interesting?
UN is not something which would enforce rules. It's not built for that, it's not a world government.
The arrogance of thinking indefinite bombing and killing will get you what you want.
I'm not saying it will be easy, but if the world doesn't enforce something endless cycle of killing will never stop. Neither side is interested in anything other than extermination now. Not acting will result in some form of genocide. You could say one is already underway.
It's not about easy or hard, it's about this not happening cause there's no force to make it happen.
You're acting like we're just talking about "actions" that people are "doing."
What you're ignoring is the apartheid society created by Israel. They're directly responsible for the conditions that foster this type of response.
This isn't a "both sides are just as bad" thing. One of these groups has been horrifically oppressed and kept in the largest open-air prison on the planet for nearly 100 years. Any time Hamas has attacked Israeli soldiers (you know, because they're literally kicking them out of their family homes they've lived in for generations. Which is genocide btw), Israel has responded by slaughtering hundreds to thousands of Palestinian (not Hamas) civilians. It's completely disproportionate.
I'm not defending or justifying, just trying to explain.
Displacement isn't genocide.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention#Definition_of_genocide
Seems to fit to me.
It seems to fit to you because your initial operating assumption is that you should support the terrorists here and everything else you believe is distorted to meet those expectations.
For instance, Israel told the civilians to move to the city of 120k people that is called a refugee camp, but is in fact a full on 80 year old city, and fourteen people died in an airstrike on a Hamas position.
But you didn't Google the city "camp" or look past the claims at all, because your initial assumption is "Israel bad, Hamas good."
You are indeed defending terrorists who kill families of civilians with no overarching military goal in mind at all.
no one says hamas is good. but they don't need to be in order for israel to be bad.
You know nothing about me, and fuck you for making an accusation like that. Shameful.
I know what you state, and that's what you stated.
If that offends you, take a long look in the mirror and sort your life out
Lol ok bud. Can you tell me my star sign too?
terrorist is loaded language.
Terrorism is indeed when you kill civilians with no military aim in mind. Invading a country specifically to murder their families in their homes is absolutely terrorism.
by this definition every colonizer is a terrorist, which means that the israelis are terrorists. maybe we just shouldn't use the term, and instead condemn bad actions and bad actors on the merits of the actions without the political label.
Maybe you shouldn't use the term "colonizer" since that's a dumb fuck term.
why should the military aim matter? THAT'S PURELY POLITICAL. terrorism just means you don't LIKE the politics of the person doing the killing.
Terrorism is explicitly killing done without military targets in mind. It's explicitly political, and targeted at civilians, to instill terror.
I'm sorry you don't like the definition of the word, but it is the definition of the word.
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Because that's what I said. It's like you can't even try to act in good faith.
Love how there's no call for responsibility when it's Israel committing the atrocities. Here's just some examples out of thousands:
A child being collaterally hit in an air strike or as part of an ongoing military campaign is not at all equivalent to beheading babies because you want to exterminate Jews.
Both are bad, in the way that stepping on a rusty nail and being hit by a train are both bad, and they are similarly not equivalent.
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I wasn't really ignoring it, merely addressing the point that was raised.
I've said this elsewhere, but going through and trying to tally up who's done what and which side is worse is pretty much a futile exercise. It won't lead to any useful resolution. They've been going at it for so long, both sides have done horrific things that were disproportionate responses to the other side. They've pretty much done it all. The bigger issue is less what they do, more that they both keep doing it.
This just is not true. There is a massively imbalanced power dynamic there. They've been keeping the Palestinian population in an open-air prison for at least half a century. They're literally incapable of responding disproportionately to what Israel is constantly doing to them. They don't have the resources or freedom of movement.
Just look up the casualty statistics on both sides since at least since the end of WW2. It's been some time since I've looked at them, but we're talking at least one (possibly more) order of magnitude difference between the two.
I would say raiding towns and villages and beheading babies is a disproportionate response to anything.
There is definitely a power imbalance, and Israel has probably killed more Palestinians overall than the other way around. However, Israel have also shown some measure of restraint up until now - they've never completely eradicated Palestine, as Palestinians frequently claim to want for Israelis and have previously attempted to do, even though Israel actually could. Israel has definitely not shown enough restraint, but they've shown more than they would likely face if the balance of power was the other way around.
There's also the twisted mess of politics. Members of the government of Israel have at many times over the years promoted the support of terrorist groups in Palestine as a way of destabilising Palestine as a nation. So, even while the actions of Hamas on Saturday were horrific and unforgiveable, some Israelis have actively been encouraging this kind of thing.
Like I say, tallying up who's done what doesn't really get you anywhere. Both have done horrific and unforgiveable things. It's like comparing shit covered apples to shit covered oranges, you can talk about the differences as much as you like - and you might even be correct in everything you say - but at the end of the day the biggest problem is that they're both covered in shit.
The IDF are no saints. They've done some awful awful things. Including targeting clearly marked medics and press, and murdering children for throwing rocks at them.
Yep, it is relatively easy to find video of IDF humiliating and torturing young people at checkpoints or around their home in the most cowardly manner on earth, seriously it was hard to see.
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Two points:
I'm disgusted that a few days ago some terrorists attacked a music festival and killed hundreds and you're defending the terrorists. It sounds like you've been taken in by some propaganda yourself.
If condemning terrorists attacking innocent people at a music festival means I'm a product of propaganda, then so be it.
You're absolutelly right in condemning terrorist attacks like that one.
All terrorist attacks should be condemned, including ordering people to shelter in a specific place and bombing them as describe here.
If your condemnation is indeed Principled, then all such acts of murder for the purposed of terrifying the rest are equally repugnant and you'll condemn them equally no matter the "side" of those who did such disgusting acts.
As Principle seems to be notably absent in how so many commenters have tackled the subject matter (with only some murders being important, not others, depending on which "side" did it), I pointed it out.
Let's not forget that the act of using civilians as shields is a warcrime in the first place to prevent this kind of situation from occurring.
If Israel tells Palestinian civilians to evacuate because there's Hamas military targets in that building, and Hamas troops tell them no. Then they die, and Hamas can cry wolf.
It would be Israel who is following international decorem and Hamas making it difficult for any country to support them.
Just now, Austria cut off aid to the Gaza region. Is that Israel's fault? Nope.
Hamas had good PR going and they fucked it up by escalating with brutality.
Cutting off power to Palestinians is also a war crime. Why are war crimes only bad when Palestine does them an not when Israel does them 5x as often?
I'm not justifying anything that Israel has done in the past. The main point of my comment is that Hamas made a really poor decision here on behalf of the Palestinians. There is absolutely no doubt.
There is no moralizing or whataboutism.
The fact of the matter is that this caused a divided Israel to unite in anger. And support for Palestine has been cut by all European nations and Australia. Palestinian sympathizers and charity leaders have been among the victims.
The question you should be asking is if you support the Palestinian people is…
What the actual hell is this bonehead decision-making by Hamas? There is no scenario of success in this endeavor unless the Western world decided to withdraw all support from Israel and give it to Hamas.
Was that going to happen? No. Hamas never tried to establish good diplomatic relations with anyone.
The world stage is a democratic club, and Hamas rejected it all. Hamas burned every single bridge with other countries no matter how many citizens of those governments complain.
Please don’t talk past me.
Okay I'll answer you. It's wrong for Israel to cut power to civilians. It's right for Israel to cut power to military targets.
If military targets embed their infrastructure with civilian infrastructure. Oopsies. Civilians are now military targets.
Palestinians MAYBE shouldn't have Hamas in power if they're going to power their military operations with civilian power. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Every world power knows that, that's why most have pretty much gotten behind Israel, regardless of any apartheid Israel has done.
The US did the same thing when 9/11 happened. The US did the same thing in Operation Desert Storm along with other NATO countries who joined the US in operations in the middle east.
Nobody in the west complained then, and nobody's complaining now, because Hamas did the dumb dumb.
NO! What the fuck NO! Even if that was true it's disgusting but Israel routinely lies about the presence of Hamas and then never even bothers to doctor proof.
Lol nah, its because the US and UK use Israel as a FOB. That's it. It's strategically advantageous so they will get behind any lie Israel makes up that helps them keep it as a base.
Yes they did. Bro lie through your teeth more. And you act like what the US did after 9/11 was a good thing? It fucking wasn't. WE ALL KNOW THAT NOW. We accept that Bush did war crimes. No one argues about that. We don't do anything about it but we all look back and are like "wow that was really fucked up"
Literally the first thing the US does in any engagement is cut the power.
It's not a war crime lol
Human Rights Watch is an activist group with no authority.
You are free to agree or disagree with them. Clearly I disagree here, but I do agree with their condemnation of the Palestinian attacks.
I don't care about your opinion I care about the facts. Israel is very openly doing war crimes.
As if the US gives a single fuck about war crimes. If we did, at least 5 people from George W. Bush's administration would be rotting in prison right now.
Yes, it's still a war crime when we do it.
That terrorist attack has already happened, and there's another terrorist attack underway, this time with cassette munitions and white phosphorus and in general very different capabilities, done by another side.
Attacking kids at a music festival? Or attacking a terrorist organization? Your false equivalency is despicable.
Just admit it. You hate Jewish people. Stop pretending there is some moral equivalent for Hamas attacking and indiscriminately killing innocent people, and Israel trying to stamp out an entrenched terror cell that is using their people as meat shields to somehow manipulate people like you into thinking they're the good guys. 🙄
First, you wrote some incomprehensible bullshit, second, I'm part Jewish.
That sucks that you're part Jewish and still hate them so much that you go on the internet and support killing them.
Why do you keep posting nonsense? Anything about me anybody can judge for themselves from my comments. You look like a moron. Things don't become your way just cause you say so.
At least try to pretend you're here for a real discussion.
Sure buddy, I am also Steve jobs
The Israeli-German girl is apparently still alive and in criticial condition in the Indonesian hospital in Gaza. She wasn't murdered (though of course she could still succumb to whatever was done to her).
And she's also 30 while somehow being 22. The reporting on this has been atrocious.
Got a link?
Sorry for the German link. It's the most reliable source I could find, tho.
https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/shani-deutsche-hamas-israel-100.html
tl;dr her aunt says she's alive in a hospital. No way to verify. Assumption that she's alive is based on credit card activity.
Surely credit card activity isn't a strong indicator.
Of some bearded terrorist guy going to belly dance clubs in Cairo, surely.
You know, google for "Anush Apetyan" and consider that Israel is Azerbaijan's main military supplier after Russia, and almost an ally, and nothing from what Azerbaijani troops are doing (just the same Hamas stuff) seems to have any effect.
Also Israel is a genocide-denier state. Israelis on the Web like to behave all cynical and realpolitik-enjoying and "what are you going to do" on subjects similar to what Hamas has done in Sderot etc.
I'd say there is an element of crocodile tears in this.
Action should be taken to prevent anybody doing anything like this again, to Israelis or anybody else, but that doesn't mean Israel somehow got moral. Promoting that would be exploiting events for propaganda.
Absolutely agreed. Israel is justified in some measure of response, to prevent future attacks and rescue hostages. They are not justified in the bombing of Gaza that they've been doing instead.
The point I was making though is that using Shani Louk as some kind of figurehead is in no way disingenuous. It's somewhat unfair that Palestine doesn't have similar figureheads of their own to garner support (and indeed this is a direct result of Israel blocking media access), but that doesn't mean that what happened to Shani isn't a valid symbol of everything that was wrong with the attack on Saturday.
The only reason it's not productive, in your opinion, is because it makes the side you support look REALLY fucking bad.
"Why can't we all come together and forget the 6+ decades of horrific oppression and wildly disproportionate warfare, and all just get along?"
No, the reason it's not productive to dig through all the atrocities is that, provided you keep at least something of an open mind, you'll quickly get sick of both sides and not even want to bother finding any solution.
Both sides have indiscriminately murdered civillians and children. They might have done it in different ways, one side might have managed to kill more than the other, but they've both done barbaric things.
I don't support either "side" in this.
This kind of strawman statement confirms that you aren't arguing in good faith, you've only come here to spew bullshit.
rephrased…"Let's not bicker and argue over who killed who". Serious conversation and that is what my mind locks on. Go figure.