I feel like im going nuts.We are watching the destructon of a civillian population take place,cheered on by western goverments and media.I just feel sick
Is it really cheered?
Most people only agree that the murders on civilians started by Hamas were absolutely horrible and unnecessary. As for what is coming after I don't think normal people are happy about either.
All western mainstream media and western governments are firmly supporting Israel. So, yes the west is actively endorsing genocide here.
Politicians are afraid to take stances against Israel because they think their consituents are on Israel's side. Tell them what you think, email them links they cant ignore, call them and explain you know whats up and will call them out for supporting genocide if they don't take everything thats happened into account. It will make a difference. Its the least anyone could do. Posting on social media about your frustrations only is not enough.
Western governments are supporting Israel because they just got over a thousand people butchered.
They're also asking Israel to show restraint in Palestine. Even the US, Israel's chief arm's dealer, is telling them not to do war crimes. Is it meaningless chin music? Of course. But it's not necessarily an "endorsement".
If your friend sees his kid get grievously hurt, you support him. When he gets his gun, you try to talk him down. Now, the problem in this story is: you gave him that gun.
I don't think the west is endorsing genocide.
I do think that, if it really comes to real actual genocide: They armed it.
edit: I thought that weird name looked familiar, so I figured I'd check. Why are they always vatniks?
https://lemmy.ml/comment/3437882 by https://lemmy.ca/u/yogthos@lemmy.ml
No, I don’t think Putin is draining any swamp, but I do think he runs a far more competent administration than western oligarchs.
(Side note, speaking of WWII: Remember that Soviet flag on the Reichstag picture? That’s of a Ukrainian. Taken by a Ukrainian).
And now thanks to the help from the west Ukraine is run by literal fascists. Maybe something you should reflect on.
In any case, this conversation is clearly pointless since you evidently live in an alternate reality. I’ll just let you figure things out on your own and reconcile the fantasies you’ve built up with the real world as it becomes increasingly more difficult to ignore going forward.
(emphasis mine)
blocked. Life is too short for people like this.
fuck off
Same to you.
And the red in that graph is "injuries", not "deaths". When Hamas attacked Israel a few days ago they butchered over 1300 people, mostly civilians, the most ever killed in a single day in this mess.
Does that excuse the Israeli government's apartheid fascism? Of course not. Does it make appropriate for governments to take a moment to show support? Yes.
You can argue that it's retaliation for decades of oppression, or for the horrible attacks in Palestine in 2014 that killed even more people spread over a month.
That doesn't make it right. It's still terrorism. It's still butchering civilians.
No, it does not make it appropriate for governments to show support for the genocide that Israel is committing. And the fact that you don't understand that says everything I need to know about you.
I'm hearing this repeated over and over, but its simply not true. CNN is covering it somewhat adequately. Go to their website.
Yes, fox are freaks. Obviously. And that is the most mainstream media. And what is happening in Gaza is a war crime. But it is willful blindness to say it is being reported in nowhere for the mainstream.
Show me where CNN says what's happening in Gaza is a war crime and condemning Israel over it?
Its not the job of journalists to make that kind of judgement call. Only to report the facts on The ground. They have written plenty of articles about what Human Rights Watch, EU politicians, UN has to say on the matter.
The fact that what Israel is doing in Gaza is a war crime is a plain fact according to the international law and the UN. The journalists aren't being asked to make this judgment, it's already been made. They're asked to report the facts which they are not. The fact that you feel the need to try and whitewash this really says volumes.
How am I white washing? I have stated repeatedly in my posts that they are indeed warcrimes. I figured that out impression following mainstream media coverage btw.
No, you are only trying to advance a case for all mainstream media being propaganda, blindly, without actually watching or criticizing it. This is ideological, and while it is an effective critique of the modern media landscape, you are using it to lie about the nature of the reporting.
deleted by creator
“But they are allowed to defend themselves” says the Western presidents.
This has nothing to do anymore with defending themselves. This is just another path to their genocide mission.
I'm curious. Put yourself in Israel's shoes. You've been massively attacked by Hamas from Gaza.
What would you do next? How would you approach this war?
How would you defend yourself to make sure this never happens again.
If i try to invade your house and take it for myself, if i make you a second class citizen and subject you to constant violence and dehumanization using disproportionate force, you have every right to shoot me in the face.
If i lock you in an open air prison and arrogantly hold a huge trance festival dorectly outside the walls of your prison that celebrates peace, love, and happiness, with 0 regard for you as a human being, while you and your family waste away under my opression, I'd deserve to be shot, because thats fucking demented, unnecessary and quite frankly, callous to the point of being soulless.
If i even once had the nerve to suggest the festival celebrated peace between me and the people who are locked in said prison and cant even attend because their race inst allowed outside of those walls, even if they could afford the expensive as fuck tickets, when they are destitute because of being locked in this prison, than that would make me so fucked up, I wouldn't blame anyone for shitting on my corpse afterwards.
And finally, i can say this no problem because its so fucking easy not to do any of these things, even on my worst days of my life, i have no worries that i might be so stupid to do any of these things even for a second.
The whole situation is the result of Israel's land theft, apartheid, suffocating blockade on Palestinians in the first place.
Agree. I can acknowledge Hamas is fucked up, while also acknowledging Israel is using a bigger stick to simply be more fucked up in a more organized way now.
With an openly racist rhetoric too. Goverment officials are calling Palestinians "savages, animals, vermin" OPENLY, the head of state is posting videos about buildings getting bombed proudly.
Yeah there's one universal truth in war: everyone loses. Maybe it's their life, their sanity, their resources, or their supporters, but everyone loses.
The ruling class wins.
Me too, it's completely insane
Both sides are murdering countless innocent civilians. This whole situation is horrible. There are no winners in this war.
I'm still baffled by what Hamas was thinking this thing would achieve. It's giving Israel the excuse to completely wipe out Gaza. It's one thing to destroy the wall and attack a military base, but murdering entire villages was only going to have one outcome. It's like they wanted the opposite of Palestinian liberation.
They want to go out in "a blaze of glory" rather than fade away. Israel has been clearing them out slowly and nobody is stopping it, but if Hamas provokes Israel into doing it quickly maybe that will generate enough outrage that the world will try to stop it.
While Israel has been chipping away at Palestinian land in the West Bank, Palestinian population continues to rise, and rise faster than Israeli population at that. And we don't see the West Bank doing these kind of attacks, only Gaza.
https://www.statista.com/chart/20645/palestine-and-israel-population-growth/
They ain't fading away, regardless of Israel's attacks and oppression. The "blaze of glory" is just terrorism.
The median age is 18, how convenient of you to not mention that.
It makes perfect sense if you read up on the history of the conflict, particularly over the last 30 years.
Palestine's reward for trying to find a diplomatic solution has been Western-sanctioned destruction and massacre every single time. We westerners have largely ignored that their land has been taken, hospitals and infrastructure bombed, news reporters and civilians shot in cold blood, and no meaningful repercussions for any of it. They've even been blockaded for sixteen years.
Think of it like a smaller-scale Tet Offensive. It didn't seem to make a ton of sense for the Vietnamese to launch an offensive against the South Vietnam and their powerful allies either.
And when you consider how unreasonable it is for 1.1 million people to evacuate in a day, remember also that these people aren't allowed out in the first place.
My guess is that they wanted to provoke Israel into attacking, hoping that the rest of the nations in the area would use the atrocities as a justification to attack Israel.
They must know that the support for Palestinians by neighbouring countries has only been limited to lip service by most Arab countries for decades. They're all too happy to buy Israeli tech to spy on their own populations, that's basically the bargain they made to stay in power.
There's basically only Iran and Lebanon that are actual "allies", and that's basically more Iran using those groups to make things difficult for the US, and not anything that would actually help Palestinians.
Has it ever occured to you that maybe, just maybe they wanted to fight back instead of slowly getting erased? There is no 5D chess going on here, its incredibly simple.
I don't claim to know what's really going on, this guy does though…thoughts? https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/israel-hamas-war-iran-trap/675628/
It's not for you to understand. You're not there. You're not suffering it, you're not fighting it, you're not analyzing it to save your life and your nation, you're not planning it, you're not preparing for your own death and ensuring it's worth it.
Stop passing judgment based on whether you personally have the ability to figure out what specific strategy they are motivated by and start passing judgment based on the structures at play here.
Hamas made a choice. It's time for us to either support Israel or support Palestine. Condemning Hamas to the degree that we do not render them aid means supporting Israel. Allowing Israel to fight Hamas means supporting Israel. The atrocities can be sorted out in The Hague next year.
They're doing the Hitler strategy of taking everyone on the ship down with them, in the hope that it will inspire extremists elsewhere, and to inspire future generations to do the same because surely they are the victims here. Didn't work out that way for Germany in the end now did it?
Also, I'm not saying that Israel is in anyway justified erasing 1.000.000 people off the map. They are also terrible.
Only one side is engaging on ethnic cleansing with racist rhetoric included. Spoiler: it's not Palestine.
This is what I don't get either. Israel's reaction is 100% predictable. They knew their attack would result in thousands of their own people getting killed. Did they have an objective that they thought would help improve the lives of Palestinians living in Gaza?
If Hamas attacks Israel, Israel's current gov stays in power. If Israel attacks Hamas, Hamas stays in power.
It's in the interest of all in power to keep this going. Peace destroys both their political platforms.
Nonsense, the crimes of israel are on a complete different scale. You can't fucking say both sides are bad when palestine fights back after decades of oppression.
Uh… Israel is killing countless people. Hamas is killing countable people. There is no comparison. It is completely lopsided. The fact that you don't understand that indicates for everyone around you where you get your (did)information from.
Which western governments are cheering it on?
Cheering maybe not. Unconditional support for effectively genocide? Absolutely.
Pretty much all of them?
I follow mainstream media all day and you're so fucking wrong. You don't know what you're talking about, or more likely: you've an agenda of your own.
deleted by creator
And go fucking where and how?? They all will just catch the train?? A boat?? A really big bus??
Also
The Israeli military said it would operate "significantly" in Gaza City in the coming days and civilians would only be able to return when another announcement was made.
Famously leaving and returning is very easy for Palestinians and they will have no reservations leaving with a potential of returning.
Yeah there's no way the city isn't just annexed into Israel.
Yeah they are not just going to do that. First they will flatten it and kill anyone who stayed in it THEN they will annex it.
They don't care. They already cut off the water. The Israeli government is hoping to see as many men, women and children dead in the deserts and plains of the region as possible.
Just leave bro! Trust us™
Haven't you heard? They're taking a train to go camping.
Ooof.
There's a history of returning millennia after being forced to leave in that part of the world. I'm sure the Israeli government has a similar timeframe in mind.
How the fuck do you evacuate more than 1 million people , where the majority are women and children??
You know, through the border crossings that are all closed. They're just announcing this to claim that they gave people ample warning to leave when inevitably scores of Palestinians end up bombed.
Not just closed, ISREAL BOMBED THEM so they'd close
You can't. Isreal knows this. But by saying "We told them to evacuate" they've now provided themselves sufficient cover for everything that happens after. When civilians get slaughtered on mass they'll just keep repeating "They were told evacuate".
Not to mention the old, the sick and the disabled. On top of that the numerous injured from the bombings.
Not to mention all the old, sick and disabled, or simply injured, are guaranteed shitload of suffering since the apartheid genocider state cut off electricity and water, so this includes to the hospitals.
Answer: You don't. Not in 24 hours and especially not when the people in charge don't want the civilians to leave either. This will be used by Israel as a thin justification that whatever they do next did not hit civilians because they asked them to evacuate (the 24h hours part of this ultimatum will be dropped under the table, never to be mentioned again).
Just to put it into perspective:
Lets assume half of those 1.1 M find shelter in Gaza but outside Gaza city, (I think this is generous, as it will mean ~2 people living there usually for each person seeking shelter, as 2 M people live in the entire Gaza region). This leaves 550 k people to exit through the three border crossings. This leaves each person an average time of less than half a second per parallel processing capacity of the crossings to cross the border. Note that all three of these crossings are closed if I'm not mistaken.
Israel bombed them lol
Over a million people out of a city in that region is impossible.
Over a million people are going where exactly? Are there camps where they can stay? Where there is water and food? Are their basic needs met? Or are they just expected to walk into the desert, never to return from the shadow realm?
Over a million people who are supposed to stay away while the Israeli military does what exactly? Fight against the Hamas on a fair battlefield? Because the Hamas is known for playing by the rules, yes? Because they also won’t just leave the city to strike at a later time, right? You understand how terrorists operate? You might have learned one thing or another in the last few decades?
Over a million people who can’t leave the city and will either get murdered by the Israeli military, murdered by Hamas or slaughtered in the crossfire. Israel can say „Told ya to leave the city“ and Hamas will get rock hard at the next generation of desperate people who will be easy to recruit.
But what do I know? You do you. Everyone else seems to know it better and shit just keeps getting worse. Every single decade, this shitfest escalates more and more. People die, politicians condemn, some really like the idea of Jew or Muslims dying. Everyone acts like they did a thing.
This is not the end. We will be here again in ten years. Same shit, only even worse than now.
The impossibility of evacuating all those people safely is the point, Israel wants the civilians to die.
This is the modern Trail of Tears, but since Israel has been predetermined to be the good guy it will be cheered and celebrated.Meanwhile Hamas is telling people to stay and is actively stopping people from leaving. source
With how messy a evacuation this large and sudden tends to be, stopping it may save lives.
It depends on what Israel does after the time is up though, so that isn't for sure better or worse.
Fight against the Hamas on a fair battlefield?
They're going to bomb it from a very safe distance. And, if the last week is anything to go by, may 'accidentally' bomb places they've herded everyone into.
I feel like we are watching an opening phase of Israel literally clearing the place out, forcing these people to the beach, then telling the international community too come pick them all up, or else.
They history doesn't repeat itself. But sure enough, there is an awful lot of verses in the books that rhyme with the last week.
Israel's wet dream, an excuse to displace half of all Palestinians from their land, bomb it all to the ground, if there are casualties; "Hey, you were warned."
Don't get me wrong. Fuck Hamas, but also fuck Israel, fuck neocolonialism, fuck propaganda/disinformation about baby beheadings and free Palestine!
Don't forget fuck religion. Let's not pretend like that's not a core issue.
Fuck religion and self righteous religious zealots who've abandoned reason and humanity
This scene from a game has some resemblance of the situation. Plus, israel is using white phosporus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b7TaLjdXMc
"Why…?" "You brought this on yourself"
If you're gonna link to That Scene from Spec Ops you gotta include a "Seriously Gnarly Shit Ahead" content warning or something.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=-b7TaLjdXMc
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Removed by mod
This is barely even a "formality" before a massacre. Israel was looking for an excuse to go all out without any restraint and they got it. It's fucking tragic that these bastards are playing with civilians lives. Fuck both authorities.
Removed by mod
It's a war between genocidal terrorists and apartheid colonialist fascists, with a massive civilian body count on both sides. Can't we all just be sad about dead kids instead of being cheerleading freaks?
edit:
Y'know, I though this @ name was familiar and so I figured I'd take a look.
https://lemmy.ca/comment/3944960
@TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml
Israel is genociding and colonising Palestine since about 80 years. Ukraine was genociding Donbass for 8 years.
… yeah, I'm not sure I'm really going to take him seriously on his opinion on geopolitics. Blocked.
Removed by mod
You want to point out where he's wrong or do you want to admit that you haven't researched these conflicts?
Israel is a terrorist state.
Same tactic by israel before. They flat out a building office of AlJazeera & Associated Press back in 2021 with a 1 hour warning. They really dont care if all civilian manage to evacuate or not
Killing journalists, truly a sign of a healthy democracy
Only democracy in the middle east baby! 👉👉
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/bQjq802NX8g
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
So considering the disproportionate actions against innocent civilians we're seeing Israel do to annex some land, we're surely will see sanctions and economic blocks against them soon right? RIGHT?
deleted by creator
Israel has been pretty consistent with not wanting to annex Gaza land; it isn't like there is that much left. The focus has generally been to take over the West Bank.
Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Israel moved Palestinians from the West Bank to Southern Gaza for "safety reasons" to clear out pockets of West Bank Palestinians.
No, they have blue eyes and our governments are subservient. And Israel cyber taskforce have backdoor everywhere or in most our infrastructure.
After all, this is how they sold the UA unanimous and unconditional support.
Get out of here with the "disproportionate actions" rhetoric. Watch any countey get shot at ONCE and take it like Israel has consistently for the past DECADES. Enough is enough. Hamas is ISIS and has been elected by the people of Gaza. Never again means never again
has been elected by the people of Gaza
Not really. The last election was 17 years ago and literally half the current population are aged 18 or younger.
Where are they supposed to go? Egypt closed their border too. Israel wants to kill them and then say "we warned you". The israel government and Hamas need to pay for every citizen that is hurt
That would be near impossible even if organized.
It literally just feels like a guise so that when humans rights groups or the international community raise questions about it they can be like, "But we warned them!!"
Do no forget that your government supports israel
They do?
After 24 hours Israel will slaughter who is left and pretend like everyone who isn't Hamas had time to leave. This smells like a thin concession so Israel can pretend like they follow international laws for whatever comes next.
And then many of those who managed to flee end up dying too, since they have nowhere to go.
Also, large crowds fleeing in panic are not exactly save in themselves. And don't even start with people with disabilities.
so Israel can pretend like they follow international laws for whatever comes next.
They aren't part of the Geneva Convention, so they'll likely stick with the their own (US-backed) rules.
They're just offering it as a fig leaf that pundits can use as a talking point, and basically every journalist that isn't Medhi Hassan is just going to neglect to push back and mention the practical impossibility of evacuating Gaza City.
Israel is a terrorist state.
Not even a state. Just a colonial project by terrorist settlers.
By colonists, for colonists
Damn, Isreal really saw what happened in fallujah and went "Ooh write that down write that down"
