Edit: obligatory explanation (thanks mods for squaring me away)…
What you see via the UI isn’t “all that exists”. Unlike Reddit, where everything is a black box, there are a lot more eyeballs who can see “under the hood”. Any instance admin, proper or rogue, gets a ton of information that users won’t normally see. The attached example demonstrates that while users will only see upvote/downvote tallies, admins can see who actually performed those actions.
Edit: To clarify, not just YOUR instance admin gets this info. This is ANY instance admin across the Fediverse.
To illustrate op’s point I’m going to spin up an instance, federate with everyone, and not tell anyone what that instance is.
Then I’m going to feed all that data into my new website, called Open Lemmy Stats, where anyone can query the user data ive accumulated. The homepage will be ripe with insights, leaderboards and all kinds of data on prolific users.
Additionally, I’ll display a snapshot/profile of a random user by feeding that users data to GPT4 to make inferences about the user’s political affiliations and display the results.
Worst of all, I’m not going to out my instance for everyone to know it as the one to defederate. In fact I’m spinning up a few instances that will host innocuous communities that I plan to mod and support to give my instances cover for their true purpose: redundant fediverse datastreams for my site, Open Lemmy Stats.
I’ll also have a store where anyone can buy my collected fediverse data for a handsome sum.
Just kidding I’m not doing any of this. But someone absolutely will or already is.
To anyone surprised at this: welcome to the fediverse, please treat everyhing you do or say as public.
The way to achieve privacy around here is by following the long forgotten arts of the old internet before Facebook was a thing:
use a Nick name and don't tell strangers on the internet your real identity.Your home instance will act as a proxy and only they have access to your email and IP address. That does stay private.
So, as long as you trust your home instance to not leak or disclose your connection or sign up data (which would be illegal in EU countries), just sign up with an alias.
A very positive aspects of this is that it should allow us to detect voting manipulation by correlating the activity of certain potentially malicious actors. If Lemmy instances take vote manipulation seriously and do their best to block bots this has the chance to make Lemmy / Kbin much more transparent and credible than Reddit ever was.
Reading these comments, seeing so many excuses, sarcastic responses, and handwaving, makes me realize a great deal of users really need to develop some imagination.
This is not about privacy. It’s about data that can easily be used for targeting and profiling users, and how that creates countless avenues for targeted harassment and wide scale retaliation. It’s about all of the innumerable ways public vote information can and will be abused to manipulate scoring across the site with targeted/automated shadow banning and shared blocklists. Raise your hand if you trust every single admin to never abuse such a tool to curate the outward appearance of an instance to fit a narrative.
For a different example: I could say something about how great Nazis are right now, and have a bot programmed to read every single person that downvoted me, add those names to a shared blocklist, and viola, I’ve made myself and all my alts invisible to the people that would challenge me on a massive scale.
I promise you this is going to be a big issue as tools for this site get more sophisticated over time.
Not to sound harsh or anything, but those of you saying that it’s okay that all this data is public are insane. This completely goes against the entire philosophy of the Fediverse and FOSS in general. The reason we all are fleeing from Big Tech is because they collect so much data on us. At least, they keep it hidden from public view. This is a major issue in my opinion, and needs to be addressed ASAP before we can claim to have superior platforms on the Fediverse. Why can’t this data at least be encrypted?
Agreed, I am incredibly confused by what seems to be the majority reaction to this.
I’ve never been particularly involved with the FOSS community, though I do use a few FOSS apps and generally appreciate their view on what FOSS means. I also strongly appreciate data privacy, and it was my observation that the FOSS community was (generally) relatively the same way. So to see this reaction is very surprising. It’s quite literally the same terrible argument of “Why fear it if you have nothing to hide” used against multiple data privacy concerns throughout the years.
I think the worst are the bad faith “But Reddit…!” arguments. For one, we’re not on Reddit anymore, this is about Lemmy’s issues that can be corrected. And for two, whilst Reddit potentially outsourcing that data to the highest bidder is far from ideal, at the very least the data wasn’t outright PUBLIC to anyone who wishes to set up a simple server.
You say these issues can be corrected but I am not sure they can. ActivityPub is a protocol managed by the W3C. So to have different behavior You’d have to change the specification there. That is possible but it will take some time. Still you’d need a way to make votes not bound to a user and still hard to spoof. That sounds hard. Apart from that upvotes and downvotes are not really the most interesting datapoints you can gather. You can still collect posts. These can’t be obfuscated. There is simply no way to have an open network where you can share data between servers where you can make sure that no one harvests the data. It is simply not possible. As soon as it is public it is public. This has nothing to do with FOSS. If you have a solution you can implement it. That is what it means. If you have one then go ahead.
You’d have to change the specification there. That is possible but it will take some time.
Then they should do so, these issues need to be fixed ASAP.
Still you’d need a way to make votes not bound to a user and still hard to spoof.
Obfuscating user IDs via a hash or something would seem like the way to make it work. I’m not a professional programmer, I only know a little bit of python, so I have no idea if I’m talking nonsense on that front. And whilst still not an ideal solution, but sharing non-private votes with your own instance admin and have them share only the total vote count with other instances is another solution. That way you need only trust your instance admin, which is choosable and can also be yourself.
That is what it means. If you have one then go ahead.
Putting the onus on me is a shitty thing to do. I’m not the one running this site in any capacity, but this is an issue that many users are unhappy with. If the issue with the site won’t or even can’t be fixed, then I will simply not use the site. I don’t know how many people feel the same on that front, but I’d imagine there’s quite a few.
Putting the onus on me is a shitty thing to do
You are the person who has a problem with that and you mentioned FOSS. It is easy to complain. FOSS gives you the tools to change things. But you have to put in the work. You are the one putting the burden the change something to your liking on others instead of doing to yourself.
Obfuscating user IDs via a hash or something would seem like the way to make it work. I’m not a coder, so I have no idea if I’m talking nonsense on that front. And whilst still not an ideal solution, but sharing non-private votes with your own instance admin and have them share only the total vote count with other instances is another solution. That way you need only trust your instance admin, which is choosable and can also be yourself.
Both of your ideas are not compatible with ActivityPub as far is I can see. So you first need to change the specification and then make everyone adopt the specification. Before that any change would make your software incompatible with the rest of fediverse which is counter the idea.
And all of that because people could be mad about a downvote. I am an instance admin. I was downvoted before. I never even thought about looking up who downvoted me. I know people are different but to be honest if someone looks it up and harasses you then you block them. And I really can’t imagine that your vote on a post with a pseudonym is really a very useful datapoint for anyone.
I agree that these things have to be communicated better but I don’t even know how we would make people aware of this. No one reads disclaimers.
You are the one putting the burden the change something to your liking on others instead of doing to yourself.
To some degree yes. However, I am simply a user. I have no idea where to even begin with attempting such a thing, and whilst I’m sure I could probably find out, even if I did it would take far longer to learn, nevermind getting it adopted. It’s a lot easier for the people running the site and who have knowledge of how to do so. It’s like going to a restaurant, not liking the way they’ve done the food, so the restaurant comes back with “Cook it yourself then”. The other “solution” is of course going to a different restaurant or simply not going to a restaurant. which if:
your ideas are not compatible with ActivityPub
is truly the case, then it would seem that that is the only viable option for me personally.
And all of that because people could be mad about a downvote
I don’t care how people vote me. This isn’t strictly about downvotes, it’s about specifc content engagement.
And I really can’t imagine that your vote on a post with a pseudonym is really a very useful datapoint for anyone.
It’s potentially useful to someone. And I’d just rather not have that data public anyway, it’s just that simple. Enough data is already public, what types of content you actively engage with and how you engage with it also being public is just a bad idea in my opinion. These are core analytics almost any site collects, which imply they must have a purpose. Except here it’s public, and can also be swooped up by big companies should they dedicate a tiny fraction of computing power to run an instance.
I agree that these things have to be communicated better but I don’t even know how we would make people aware of this.
Making these things directly accessible to end users would be a start. Have a stats button that shows who precisely voted what. Hiding this shit in the backend is just blatant obfuscation.
It seems you have a few options:
- Put in the work yourself and change it.
- Finde someone who puts in their work to change it
- Accept that this is how it works
- Leave the fediverse
Option 1. has the highest chance of getting your changes but option 2. might work as well. I wish you luck if you choose these options.
Option 3. seems unlikely from your comments.
Option 4. is maybe the easiest option for you then. And I say that without wanting you gone. I’d like you to stay but I don’t think the fediverse can accommodate your demands.
I’d like to point out a flaw with your analogy though: if you go to a restaurant you pay the people to make what you want. The Lemmy Devs do this for free for you. A better analogy is going to a potluck without bringing anything and being unhappy about the lack of steak.
Option 4. is maybe the easiest option for you then. And I say that without wanting you gone.
Oh no, don’t take this the wrong way. You’ve been perfectly amiable about this throughout this discussion, I have no reason to believe you’d want me gone. I am currently considering Option 4 indeed, though I want to stay for a bit to see how this all pans out. I have other issues and concerns with the fediverse anyway.
I’d like to point out a flaw with your analogy though: if you go to a restaurant you pay the people to make what you want. … A better analogy is going to a potluck without bringing anything and being unhappy about the lack of steak.
That is a fair point, but this is a free service. There isn’t any expectancy about one contributing to it.
Perhaps a more apt analogy from my perspective would be going to a free art museum and being disappointed there isn’t any art I like, and several other people agree with me. I can ask the museum team to maybe get some more art in I and the others like, but it’s up to the museum to do so, and I can’t make art for shit and would take years to make something worthwhile. At worst, I just leave the museum, it owes me nothing, and I owe nothing to it.
I am generally shit at analogies though, so y’know, making an analogy is probably a bad idea.
then I will simply not use the site
Maybe that’s what you should do. But don’t do it as a protest. Do it because you don’t want to share that data publicly.
The entire point of social media is sharing things publicly. If you’re worried about people collecting that data, then you shouldn’t have put it in public.
There aren’t good ways to keep a public secret. That’s inherent to how information works and not a failing of ActivityPub. It’s the same reason media will never stop being pirated. If I can see/hear it, I can repeat it.
But don’t do it as a protest. Do it because you don’t want to share that data publicly.
I mean yeah, that’s what I’d do it for. It’s a suggestion for the site and it’s a sentiment that seems to be shared by several people here, but it ultimately falls down to me to decide whether or not I want to continue using it, much the same as with my usage of Reddit.
If you’re worried about people collecting that data, then you shouldn’t have put it in public.
Voting is a core functionality of the site. It’s something I don’t think should be public as it puts more emphasis on what content I interact with in what is now apparently a public manner. If you want to debate that a mere vote is something I shouldn’t put in public, then fine, you do you. But for me, it defeats half the point of me even having an account here. What one comments on are often an incredibly small portion of what one actually votes on simply by ease of voting.
And I know I said “But Reddit…!” is a bad argument earlier, but even so, I’d like to say that even Reddit’s voting is not publicly accessible (as in not accessible by other users, even if Reddit almost certainly collects and sells such data), so clearly there should be ways to do it. If ActivityPub requires public voting and the people who have the ability to change it are unwilling or even unable to do so, then fair enough. But equally, I will refrain from contributing to such a site, which seems like a bit of a shame when it seems close to ideal otherwise.
clearly there should be ways to do it
Your votes on Reddit are public to Reddit admins. On Lemmy anyone can be an admin.
Giving vote totals without names makes the system ripe for fraud and abuse. In real life votes the decision to make votes public or private is a major one. In a system like Lemmy, the problems with private votes are exaggerated, and the problems with public votes are much smaller. Your Lemmy name shouldn’t be tied to your real name. It’s unlikely anyone is going to coerce your vote like they might coerce your political vote.
If you’re concerned about anonymity, maybe use more than one name or a different name so that your account isn’t so easily tied back to you.
The purpose behind having votes be more public is to have some kind of reputation behind those votes. It’s still possible to shill, but it requires more depth and and effort, and the shills may still be discovered if there are too many.
Your votes on Reddit are public to Reddit admins. On Lemmy anyone can be an admin.
Which is my concern. I don’t like Reddit having and selling that data, but it’s easier for me to trust-ish a singular entity than some entire web of random people, which probably includes some corporate people siphoning data anyway. I know some would likely find that a tad paradoxical, but that’s how my brain works. At least then the corporation can be held accountable per the standards of the region they’re based in should there be issues, or users can mass target the corporation rather than go “Don’t like it, just move to another instance.”.
For reference, it’s still not ideal, but I’d somewhat trust my instance’s admin. Why can’t my vote history be shared purely with them? Then give other admins the raw upvote/downvote data of the post/comment. After all, the instance I choose my account to be on is my decision.
Your Lemmy name shouldn’t be tied to your real name.
It’s not. I am careful about what I put online. Whilst I’m uncertain as I’ve never particularly tried to do so beyond some cursory Googling, I’m pretty sure you can’t tie my username back to me IRL. But even so, there’s no need to add to the pile of potentially traceable publically available data.
The purpose behind having votes be more public is to have some kind of reputation behind those votes.
That can still be anonymised behind a hashed ID. If all my votes were registed to some User-XXXX and it wasn’t possible to retrieve my username from that, I’d have no issues. Though from my discussion with other people, it seems that’s counter to how ActivityPub intrinsically works. I’m increasingly working towards the opinion that the fediverse isn’t for me, if it’s all set up in a similar fashion and apparently unchangeable. As they say, “different strokes for different folks” I guess.
Exactly. When data like that is public, I can guarantee you 10000% that Big Tech and governments are harvesting ALL of it as we speak. If this issue is not resolved and TRUE privacy is not implemented sooner rather than later, Lemmy will not succeed in the Fediverse, period.
If you want privacy you need to use an encrypted chat. You can’t have privacy in a public space. That is like stand in the middle of a market place, screaming out your thoughts and then being upset that someone writes them down. It sure would be nice if our data wasn’t harvested, but that is not the world we live in. So if you want to say something in private you need to choose a private platform. Otherwise assume that Big Tech and World Governments are listening.
There’s a huge difference between what I choose to put out in public vs. data that’s being collected on me just by browsing the site. Saying “it’s just the world we live in” is just an excuse to ignore the real issues. It is more crucial now than ever that we create a system that’s by and for the people, not Big Tech and governments.
It seems that what you would like is something like 4chan, where the post will get deleted if it’s not popular. But even that, there is no way to prevent data harvesting. If it’s public, then it is public. There is nothing you can do about it. Encryption wouldn’t solve anything either because you want this data to be read by everyone so you cannot really encrypt it.
The fediverse is kind of the same as a public room where anyone can come in and just listen, take note, see who is talking and respond in the same way.
This is the point of social media. If you don’t want to participate in it because of privacy, then don’t and just lurk (or listen) like most people do.
By definition, if it’s on the internet, it’s pretty much there forever. People need to be careful on what they share on the public space, in the same way you would when talking to a big crowd. You are not talking with your friends here, you are talking to the world. If you are any privacy, you just cannot have it here. That’s impossible.
But on the Fediverse you literally can only see what you put out in the public. Your votes, your posts, your faves. That is your action in public. It is not federated what you look at. There are no trackers here that profile you. It is just your real interactions that count.
There are trackers though
Where? Not on my instance.
It depends on the instance.
I don’t think it’s possible to encrypt the data.
Say we have a rogue user that sends to the server multiple upvote requests for the same comment, how can the server reject the subsequent requests? After all, we can’t let a user upvote a post or comment multiple times.
If that data is encrypted, the server cannot tell whether the user has upvoted a comment before.
Well, I am not a developer in this field, so I don’t know what’s possible, and what’s not. All I know is that this needs to be fixed one way or another, or this whole platform will fail. If our information is all available publicly, we will be better off just using Facebook/Reddit/Twitter - at least these platforms don’t leave our data out in public view. We need to stop saying what’s not possible, and instead talk about what is possible.
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So you think this is just my problem? No, this is the entire community’s problem. Sticking your head in the sand and pretending like everything is okay is the mindset that has caused so many great freedom-oriented software projects to fail. If you are not on board with creating a better system for the future internet, then why are you even here?
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I don’t see a problem with leaving data out in public view. Hiding behind anonymity has already turned most of the internet into a dumpster fire. Maybe we’ll see less trolls and hate publicly blasted with impunity from this. It will also put ‘keeping private shit private’ in the forefront of people’s minds. What personal data are you worried about revealing on a glorified chat forum that you aren’t directly responsible for publishing? edit: before this data was available mostly to the provider and anyone willing to pay for it. At least this way the data might become so publicly available it becomes worthless and the market dries up.
Anonymity is not the reason why many platforms have turned into “dumpster fires”. Have you checked Facebook lately? People literally use their real names while lighting the whole dumpster on fire. No, privacy is more important now than ever. If I had to list all the ways our data is being used against us nowadays, I would exceed the character allowance on here. The short version is that historically, time periods were named after the materials civilization made their weapons out of (stone age, bronze age, etc.). That’s the reason why the current time period is called the Information Age. Data/information is the biggest weapon we have nowadays, and that’s why it’s critical that we protect it with all means possible if we want to retain our freedom.
Good point about FB (I’ve been off that shithole for years now and forgot). You know what, you’re right. Our only real hope now is laws for a right to online privacy. The market needs to be destroyed and I’m just hoping we can brainstorm a solution at this point. As for Lemmy: I don’t think it can be fixed. The data is there for the taking. At least it’s not being horded by a site owner?
Maybe there is a way to keep you votes hidden but there sure is no way to keep your posts hidden. The whole point of federation is to distribute your post to the other instances. You want eat your cake and have it too. You want to post publicly but stay in control of the message. You are not better off using BigTech because there someone can scrape your data as well. And you don’t even know to how many parties your data is sent without your knowledge. There is no privacy in social media.
I am not talking about the posts. Of course those are public, as they should. There’s a big difference between data I willingly put out vs. metadata and the likes.
You mean it is worse here on lemmy with the unknown number of people who can see your votes if they are interested then on [BigTech-Site-X] where an unknown number of people can see your votes if they are interested? If you or someone else you know has a nice idea how to make votes possible without the information of who did it, then you are very welcome to submit your idea to the W3C for consideration. ActivityPub is an open standard and everyone can contribute.
There might be possible technical solutions to this using hashing. Hashing is like encryption in that the original cannot be extracted, but the hashed result is unique.
For example, a solution would be to have a VOTES table with an indexed column that is a hash of a combination of the user ID, post ID, (and perhaps another “salt”, not sure). When a vote is made, the VOTES table is checked that the record (vote) does not already exist, gets an insert, and then a COUNTER is triggered for the actual vote count. (COUNTER is a db command that simply updates a counter). The hash would prevent multiple votes from the same user (as the salted hash is unique), and it would also prevent identifying who the user is from the table.
Yeah, I admit that sounds reasonable.
Although that still leaves the question of “is it scalable/performant?” on the table… Lemmy already suffers a lot from server overloading, adding the overhead of cryptographic hashing (anything less than that is not going to ensure uniqueness/true anonymity) to each act of voting surely isn’t going to help.
Hashing is a normal part of the web, it’s easily scalable.
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Still you can easily and quickly check if a user has voted on a particular post. While your method makes the tracking process quite a bit slower, it doesn’t make it unrealistic. There just aren’t that many users and posts as is the case with passwords. Still 100% better than the current approach, I hope this gets implemented.
I really don’t even think the votes table would need to itself be federated; it could just be on the user’s instance. Upvote/downvote would be a call, but it should really only require the post or comment ID and voter instance. If an instance spams votes, those upvotes/downvotes could be deleted and the instance defederated
Surely the server should be able to identity users “under the hood” without having to publicly announce everything to everyone? I’m not a programmer myself so correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t preventing unauthorized or otherwise unwelcome actions while permitting intended ones without having to announce it most of what the programming controlling a server DOES?
Surely it should be possible to write code to tell whether someone has already upvoted something and then blocking further upvote requests for that specific thing without letting all the admins of lemmygrad and lemmynsfw, for example, snoop on all users?
PS: my apologies for calling you Shirley twice, u/orangeboats. I’m sure your name is just Shirley, not Shirley Shirley.
Yeah exactly. And I am not an expert in this field either, but of course there’s a solution, one way or another. The purpose of my above comment was simply just to call out the mindset of a lot of the people on here, whom obviously have no clue about FOSS and privacy, but simply just came over from Reddit. We are at war against Big Tech these days. Our privacy is at risk and our data is being used for population control. It is vital that we have projects like the Fediverse that can counter this, but we will only be successful and win this war if we can implement some true privacy.
I think you make a valid point about Lemmy, but “hidden from public”? Big tech literally sells your data for profit.
I don’t think you’re been harsh lol, the right to secrete ballot is literally in the universal declaration of human rights.
Open ballot is a well known method for intimidating and blackmailing participants, it’s absolutely crazy that Fedivese operates this way. But even worse, seeing so many people here supports it.
I agree as in “we need to assure anonymity” although I find complete transperency better than corporate overlords deciding what happens with your data
now atleast you know that everyone that does want to know the information is going to get it [so you can behave yourself ;) ]
You call us insane but you don’t want to be harsh? I wonder what would you call people that are not panicking at even a possibility that anything personal becomes public if you were trying to be harsh.
On a more serious note, I am happy that people like you exist that care about privacy as it benefits everyone overall I guess. But you have to remember that some people, like me, don’t have issues with having their opinions and even some personal data public as long as we are aware that this is the case (which is how I treat all the social media).
For instance, durning my Reddit 7-year tenure I always wrote my comments in a way that if suddenly my employers or friend brought it up, I would not be ashamed of what I wrote.
I am not saying it’s not good to think and discuss about things like that but I would appreciate if you didn’t call people insane that have a very different attitude to you if it comes to internet privacy.
Some people freak out about internet privacy, GMO, sweeteners causing cancer, etc. There are others that don’t.
What information is stored/publicly accessible for our accounts?
I don’t see it being a problem that your votes are public so long as there’s no way to tie the account to you irl. Like, so long as the instance (? I’m very new here I don’t really understand the data structure) doesn’t store your IP address or anything does it matter?
Like yeah you can see that u/randomdickhead (again, not familiar with naming conventions) upvote some weird shit but so long as that’s where the bill ends that user could just make another account aaaaaaaaaaand… No issue?
If I have the wrong idea please let me know I’m genuinely confused about this
This completely goes against the entire philosophy of the Fediverse
Care to elaborate on that? As far as I know this is built in to all the ActivityPub applications.
Edit: Obligatory RIP my inbox.
Can we leave this kinda stuff behind? It is NOT obligatory.
People raise a good point that in countries where political dissent can actually be dangerous, this would very much dissuade people from voting on things they believe in, or even coming anywhere near Lemmy period.
A better approach I think would be to have the user’s host instance save their votes (the database obviously needs to remember what you voted on), but when federating those votes with other instances just hand over a cumulative total, e.g., “here on vlemmy.net we have +18 votes for this comment”, which the other instances can then add. There’s no need to send user information with that data.
Couldn’t we just use a hash for the usernames instead?
Nothing too over the top, but just a simple hash and match that instead?
Also, there’s way too much trust in instances. Like, one person could easily make a post on lemmy.world, go on their personal instance, and just give themselves, say, 2000 upvotes.
Instances should have their own settings on what instances are allowed to keep a local copy. (Default behavior should be to get the post itself from the instance “hosting” it).
I’m already questioning the whole system behind it, not just votes.
Say you have critical information that you want to delete but other instances can just ignore this deletion request, than I could technically write a plugin that uses an extra instance, to always display all deleted comments to me, despite me being a regular user.
For other sites you’d need a crawler, catching this information and all this in a rapid fashion to be usable, with a lot of programming extra work.
At this point we can as well remove the option to delete or edit a comment as everyone can host their own, which wouldn’t be possible with proprietary tools.
If someone can simply see votes the same way, we can as well add a mouse hover function that will display the username of whoever upvoted.
Displaying the internal information publicly is indeed the more honest approach. Still, people need to understand that Social Media is Public Media. Deleting and editing depends on the goodwill of the receiver. Just imagine you were sending an email when you send something here. It is about the same level of control. It is not like you had much more control on Facebook or Reddit.
Sure, I agree but less technically versed people don’t see it that way. It’s obfuscated, that delete doesn’t mean deleted. If I delete something on Reddit or Twitter, it’s hidden for anyone but the owner and maybe a crawler that happen to have snacked it. People try to circumvent this by using sites that cache Reddit, but even there it most often is not available if you deleted it fast enough. It costs money and there’s a delay to have a crawler everywhere all at once.
Of course nothing is ever truly deleted on the web but we have levels of hiding it. I don’t think that alone justifies ignoring that issue. It makes a difference if someone can find it with one click or needs effort. One is much easier to abuse to dogpile someone. Sure, you might not agree with me, I still though it was important to voice my concerns.
I think the problem is that people post things without informing themselves. I don’t know how to change that. People don’t read disclaimers. How do you make them know these things? You can’t put big red warning labels everywhere. People need to inform themselves.
Which is an education problem and has nothing to do with lemmy.
It is fucking 2023 if you don’t understand how the internet works by now, it’s out of ignorance and likely has to do with this societal aristocratic attitude towards “techy” subjects.
It is your responsibility to be informed and to understand the consequences of your actions. We’re finally wakin up a bit :)
Which is why either
- Votes should be publicly viewable like they are in kbin. Not necessarily readily viewable to save server resources, but through a click through or something. No need to hide something that is, in essence, public info.
- Votes should not be federated at all, but that would be awful for very small instances, though this is how Mastodon has always done it.
- Votes should be federated in aggregate, but this would kind of break federation because it’s a new type of Activity.
Another option is assigning an id per user that’s only used for tracking votes. Only the user’s server would know who did the voting, but you still get moderation where you could block votes from a certain id on another server if you believe it’s being abusive in some form.
As long as you don’t delete the voting id when the user’s account is deleted, you can avoid the votes ever being associated with the user on another server. (Since a snooping party could correlate the timing of the two deletion requests and associate the user with the votes at that time). If you did want to delete them, you could say voting id deletion happens in batches. So accounts get deleted immediately, but votes only get deleted when there’s some group size N available for deletion.
Your idea assumes that you can just change the protocol. The ActivityPub protocol is developed under the W3C. If you just change something you are no longer compatible with other services.
This part of the protocol is not explicitly defined. In fact, section 3.1 of the AP spec says that null may be used to signify an anonymous identifier, then additionally these activities could be tagged using extensions to contain a unique identifier that isn’t the actor. The more you look at AP, the more you see how loosely it’s defined, and for good reason, it allows it to be applicable to many different scenarios (a twitter, a FB, and now a Reddit). What he’s suggesting would make it not interoperable with things like Mastodon which require an actor for a Like, but it’s not changing anything about the protocol.
EDIT: By the way, other things don’t work when viewing Lemmy comments on Mastodon too, like downvotes don’t do anything on the Mastodon end. And you can follow Lemmy users from Mastodon but not the other way around.
I didn’t intend to imply that only one server changes something. I was intending to imply that the protocol should be updated (after review, ratification, etc.). I’m sure there’s edge cases I haven’t considered.
Say you have critical information that you want to delete
Then you shouldn’t have uploaded it publicly.
other instances can just ignore this deletion request, than I could technically write a plugin that uses an extra instance, to always display all deleted comments to me
The same was always possible with Reddit and was even implemented. Why is this a problem now?
For other sites you’d need a crawler
Only if they don’t have an API.
People can accidentally reveal there identity or post something, notice this is too private edit or delete it. The chance for someone to have seen it in 1 second is low. The chance for a bit to have crawled that thread, with that comment, is higher but still low as it requires infrastructure, that costs money and a little skill to setup. Something someone for a simple plugin won’t do.
If anyone can host a Lemmy instance and you just need to filter that one line of code that’s for forwarding delete or edit requests, you can just push that info into a separate view. You now just need a plugin that will poll from the instance that’s not complying to delete requests and display them to the user. Hell that’s something even I could do quickly if I ever feel bored.
Hosting (or simply just using) a crawler takes less resources and skill than hosting Lemmy let alone modify it the way you intend.
Yes, I know, every CS student can program a crawler. I explained in another comment why it’s still a huge difference.
Maybe if hosting a Lemmy instance is that hard, it’s enough? I don’t know.
I found hosting a Lemmy instance pretty easy but I admit I have the experience to readily recognize how fucked the Lemmy docker-compose example is.
No clue whatsoever how to write a crawler.
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While I agree with others that it is perfectly fine for everything to be irrevocable like email is (there’s no real way the system could work otherwise), I do think the Lemmy web UI and popular Lemmy native clients could do a better job making sure users are aware of that. Maybe when writing a comment there could be a little info bar that says “Content posted to Lemmy cannot be permanently deleted. (Learn more)”. And then when you click Delete on something, it could have a similar explanation, adding something like “Deleting this comment will remove it from the feed/thread, but it can still be retrieved from the federated database by any instance administrator. (Learn more)”
I think it is still useful to have a Delete function, or maybe rename it to “Remove” or something, because maybe you realize what you wrote isn’t contributing to the discussion or for some other reason isn’t useful for most people to have in their feed. There’s a difference between deleting data and removing content from the canonical “discussion”, and just because we can’t have the former doesn’t mean there’s no value in the latter. Also, the delete function does have meaningful effects like making it impossible for people to reply to the deleted comment, which can still help with harassment. 99.9% of users will never see that comment again.
I agree that it’s good to have some kind of deletion, even if it’s not really getting rid of the content. Nothing is ever really gone on the internet, but there is value in communicating to others that you meant to retract a comment.
Good find, albeit a bit horrifying.
I wonder what the GDPR implications of this is. As far as I understand, even free, privately run services are required to abide by GDPR and offer data insight and deletion. They’re also required to state clearly what happens to user data.
Edit: Apparently people have varying takes and feelings on what the GDPR does and does not say, so I urge you to please read the summary of GDPR data privacy here: https://gdpr.eu/data-privacy/ as well as the summary of what constitutes personal data here: https://gdpr.eu/eu-gdpr-personal-data/ It’s easier to have a good and fruitful discussion if we talk about what the GDPR actually says.
So any instance admin can analyze all users upvotes/downvotes and possibly derive political standpoints, likes/dislikes, opinions and location data from it
There is a fundamental misunderstanding here.
Our data has never been ‘invisible’… We’ve just trusted that places like Reddit and their staff will do the right thing. That’s literally how it already works.
If you sign up for Reddit, Reddit staff can see your posts and votes if they want to.
If you sign up for a private forum the admin there can also see database contents.
One way encryption is not possible without stopping functionality… If data about you was encrypted then posts you make couldn’t be displayed. If you include a means to decrypt then there was no point encrypting anyway.
This is how it’s always been, and Lemmy doesn’t change this status quo much.
A faceless corporation that has had access to your data is just replaced by a variety of admins distributed across instances.
This isn’t a good or bad thing, the potential for abuse does exist, but when we have literally made agreements with places like Reddit that they can use and sell our data… then what difference does it make it an admin takes a peek?
It wouldn’t be great… but nothing is perfect.
It’s still worth working on however, to see if a better solution can be found, but at this time I’d say just be aware that it is possible that your data can be seen and understand the only safeguard against that if you need to communicate something private would be to use direct messaging with end to end encryption.
Redditors already scream at people when they get a downvote and blame it on the person that replies to them, even if that person didn’t downvote them.
I can see this being dangerous and leading to a lot of bullying. I know k-bin already publicly shows this. I can see who downvotes my comments/posts when I open up the post in a k-bin instance, without even being a member.
It shouldn’t be like that. I hope it gets changed.
Transparency is the only way auditing and validation can be done. People should own their actions.
Everyone can be an admin then everyone sees everything
We’re posting on a public forum bro…
There is nothing new or concerning about people extrapolating potentially false or truthful things about you based off of what you’ve said in the past.
If you guys are seriously going to paranoid about upvote and downvote visibility, you should check out the Snowden documents and see all the surveillance that the govt already does and has been doing on you, your data, and your social contacts.
Everyone is being critical about the new internet site which is fine but it feels like paranoia
Same. I understand why it’s like that, all instances need to be able to see the information. But there must be a way to do this without the instances understanding exactly which users are doing what. Something like zkproofs or hashes or whatever (I’m not a programmer, clearly), there is surely some way to do it while maintaining some privacy.
It gives a lot of data on users to see exactly what they upvote and downvote. Especially with AI being able to go through that data very quickly. It wouldn’t be hard to find out a user’s political leanings, general IRL location, age, gender, so many personal details they don’t want to share that could be used against them through advertising or worse.
I think I personally give out more information in what I say than how I vote, and I think that’s going to be true for a lot of people here. I want to share, and that requires me to sacrifice some privacy.
No shade intended, but if you’re concerned about what your voting history will say about you, you might consider not interacting with posts at all, and if you’re really concerned, don’t curate a news feed, either. It’s totally fine to browse logged out if you really want to be safe. I think any level of concern about privacy is valid, but it’s useful to think about the whole picture when you evaluate your risk tolerance.
Unless you don’t vote on much, I think you underestimate how much information can be attained from the pure data of up/down votes.
There is also the fact that people traditionally vote on stuff they wouldn’t comment on because they see it as more private.
I agree that a lot of information can be inferred from vote history, that’s not what I meant. I’m sorry if I came across as trying to minimize the risk there.
What I meant is that exponentially more information of the type you describe can be inferred from post history, particularly for those of us who use this space to connect with other members of marginalized groups we belong to. Voting history is a minor risk to me when just the fact that I have replied with “I have also had this experience” to a certain post or posted a meme in a certain group could cause serious trouble for me in my offline life. I don’t understand the use case where someone would become concerned about privacy because they found out their vote history could be accessed by unknown parties if they weren’t already concerned about privacy because their posts and comments are visible to anyone and everyone.
I guess the tl;dr is that I just don’t understand how the hyper focus on the risks associated with voting history is consistent with an assessment of personal risk in a broader sense. I am conscious of taking a huge risk by being on the fediverse, and I decided it was worth it. The stakes were high enough to begin with that I just assumed that the only source of privacy I had would come from anonymity, not the technology, which might be why I am confused by some of the responses I am seeing.
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Holy shit. HOLY SHIT.
I just realized what this actually MEANS.
It means that when you like or dislike something so much that you unvote and then vote a second time, people can tell. This will change karma forever.
