Israeli airstrikes destroyed a tower block in Gaza City after Hamas militants launched a rocket and air attack on Israel in the early hours of Saturday morning.
The Israeli army launched Operation Iron Swords against Hamas in the Gaza Strip, with Israel's president, Benjamin Netanyahu, saying the country, is 'at war'.
Al Jazeera journalist Youmna El Sayed was reporting live from Gaza the moment the missile struck Palestine Tower behind her.
Sources in Gaza said at least 198 Palestinians were killed in the strikes
Palestine strikes Israel: 22 dead (huge outcry) Israel strikes Palestine: 200 dead (nobody bats an eye)
Israel is a problematic subject with how imbalanced it is handled in media, resembling more propaganda than anything else.
Source for only 22 dead? Associated Press is reporting at least 250 people were killed and 1,500 wounded in Israel
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-rockets-airstrikes-tel-aviv-11fb98655c256d54ecb5329284fc37d2
According to the United Nations the number of injured and killed has been in imbalance for over a decade.
No party has been innocent in this conflict but I would lean on the side that retaliation and attacks from israel are far more deadly and damaging than from Palestine.
Palestine is trying to exterminate Jews. Full stop. Israel is defending it's very existence and that of the people who live there. The only reason it isn't proportional is because they have a better military, not because Hamas is showing restraint due to some kind of moral high ground. Stop with the both sides bullshit. One side are terrorist , the other side are defending themselves. The terrorists just happen to be weaker in this situation, that doesn't excuse them for being terrorists.
Fuck this one sided bullshit. Israel blockades fucking food imports from entering Palestine, they allow settlers to steal Palestinian homes and territory, and they refuse citizenship to Palestinians who marry Israelis. Israel has been trying to wipe Palestine out for decades. It's rich watching people on lemmy to pretend that the Israelis aren't genocidal terrorists themselves.
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Looks like that was updated half an hour before the comment you replied to was made.
And earlier this afternoon 22 was the official count for Israeli deaths, 220ish Palestinians.
So Israel has updated their number, and it looks like Palestine hasn't.
That being said, both sides can pretty much say whatever right now. There's no way to know what it actually is, there's too much chaos for anyone to know.
By the time this escalation ends up, the number would be quite disproportional as ever. And I can tell you for certain on which side the civilian casualties would be at least two times higher, as usual and I am pretty certain you can guess too.
Not supporting Hamas or any civilian casualties here on both sides, but what Israel is usually doing is not exactly diffusing the tension and usually it makes things even worse.
It's almost like Hamas shouldn't go around attacking Israel without expecting retaliation. It isn't the fault of Israel for having a better military.
And those are civilians.
That's because Hamas is a terrorist organization with the goal of exterminating Jews. The founding documents of Palestine calls for the killing of Jews and repurposing any land they occupied for setting up a Sharia caliphate. No matter how many times you falsely call it apartheid, that doesn't change. They want to kill all Jews.
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How about the illegal occupier who runs an apartheid state?
As far as I'm concerned this conflict can stay on the other side of the world. Both sides seem pretty shitty in a lot of ways.
That being said, isn't what you described the same way that every country in existence came to be? One group of people kills or runs off enough of the people who lived there and then claims the land as their own. Sure it's shitty, but it's also pretty much universal. Why do people present Israel as unique in this sort of behavior? Or Palestinians as unique in their methods of defending their perceived homeland? We're all trying to impose modern Western morality on something that is inherently barbaric and lawless, namely war, and as previously stated, that thing is also the foundation of our own societies. It all seems so hypocritical.
Obviously we need to be critical about our own history, but with this line of thinking we literally couldn't condemn anything.
"Slavery? Genocide? Mass rapes? Authoritarian persecution? Oh well, that happened here as well at some point so I guess it's okay."
It's not about blame so much as the more practical question of where the hell these people are supposed to go. If Israel doesn't deserve the land because Palestinians lived there in the recent past then where are Israelis supposed to live? If Palestinians don't deserve the land because they couldn't defend it or whatever then where are they supposed to go?
We all sorted these questions out through violence when claiming our land centuries ago. It seems to me that by failing to allow that to happen here all we've really accomplished is dragging the process out for the better part of 100 years. Is that really a better or more moral outcome?
So you think Israel should just accept that a genocidal terrorist organisation attacks its civilian population? Yes, Hamas uses civilians as meat shields but what are the Israelis supposed to do? Let themselves be slaughtered?
Jesus fucking Christ. Terrorist supporters all around here. I'm genuinely disgusted.
This is the same Israel with their elite mossad forces, yes? "Meat shields" are a poor excuse for indiscriminately bombing a city block when you have elite spec ops units. They don't do it because they have no other choice, they do it as a threatening show of force. "Fuck with us and we'll kill anyone even near you".
There's a middle ground that doesn't involve slaughtering innocents.
Any chance you can school me in the rights and wrongs of this situation, I have tried to read up on the situation between Israel and Palestine and I just can't work out who, if anyone is at fault. It just seems like a crazy unresolvable mess.
On the face of it I would just think the solution is to let the Palestinians have their bit of land and be done with it, why is it not that simple?
Also it's really hard to understand who is justified in their actions. I often find myself feeling sorry for the Palestinians but then I see them riding through London celebration the murder of innocent people and it makes it really hard for me to feel sorry for them. Similarly with Israelis, it's horrible that they have innocent civilians murdered but killing 250 in response is just crazy…
I'm not trolling or shit posting I honestly can't work it out.
There's a good Louis Theroux documentary that might give some context.
Tldw, Israelites aren't really respecting the borders - in this doco they send over zealous Jewish people from various countries to buy up and live in properties in these disputed areas to slowly take it over. Palestinians retaliate aggressively, typically violently.
Thanks all for teaching me a little about this situation, it is kind of how I had imagined it and there is no real immediate solution. I guess like any long standing conflict there are failings on both sides and neither willing to capitulate. As has been alluded to, it just does not seem to warrant the loss of life on both sides. I might do a little bit of reading on the local politics to see how this is played out to their respective populations.
Louis Theroux is always a good call!
I'm so confused, "various Jewish countries?"
No, Jewish people from various countries. Radical fucks reach out to Jewish communities abroad, the less educated and poorer the better, radicalise people into militant Zionism, the type that's completely at odds with past or present facts and only knows erm manifest destiny (to draw a parallel), then brings them into Israel which is easy because Israel hands out free passports to all Jews.
I mean, it's usually more like… Jews the world over are sick of their home countries and want to live in Israel, don't realize how expensive it is, go there, can't afford housing in Israel proper, and are told they can go live in the settlements. Or, demand causes Jews in Israel to seek cheaper housing.
Which is still an issue, but your conception is really not the norm.
It really doesn't make a difference in the end though, does it, whether people first arrive and then are radicalised (you can't set foot into a settlement without meeting awful but well-organised people, we're not talking about Hippie Kibbutzim), or whether you're radicalised before arriving, or whether the outreach programmes directly indoctrinate abroad or wait until the inevitable happens.
…I'll freely admit that I'm not deep into the details. I'm simply going off my Aunt's rants who actually lives in the country.
So, depends on the incident in question who's at fault changes, but the ones with the power to change the situation are Israel and they're not doing that. Indiscriminately killing civilians is never justified, but with how Israel has been treating Palestinians you can understand where the attitude came from. People tend to hate the shit out of their oppressors, especially when those oppressors put them in open air concentration camps.
That aside there's Israeli settlement in the West bank and East Jerusalem, the whole Apartheid thing, y'know it's a long list. Basically Israel created a situation where terrorism and other armed action is the only way to fight back, which predictably caused terrorism.
I appreciate your thoughtful response. Unfortunately it is an incredibly murky mess at this point. Say you side with Palestine and say it's their land. Do you then kick out the people who were born on the land after the conflict started? Innocent people who's only crime is the location of their birth? Or do you side with Israel and claim it's their land now and do the same to Palestinians? Where do you put the people you relocate?
I won't pretend to have an answer to that. Just pointing out that either answer has numerous problems which is part of why no solution has been reached yet. Few, if any, solution will be a "win-win". Someone will have to concede, and neither side seems willing to right now.
That said, indiscriminate violence from either side is abhorible. I detest the death of any innocent civilian in all of this. "Two wrongs don't make a right" and all that. Both sides have committed crimes and those responsible should all be held accountable for turning the area into a warzone.
We can also spice it up with a bit of game theory. Assumption: Most people on both sides genuinely want peace.
Addition: On both sides, fractions exist which benefit from the conflict. They gain from stirring up hate, provoking fights, portraying threats. They lose power and influence when peace talks succeed. They gain power and influence when their "partners" from the other side attack.
So yes, this is a wicked problem to solve, for many reasons.
That is such a weird way to phrase it. A "bit of land" like Palestinians were some kind of barbarian spawn that just showed up there.
As a Palestinian I want to personally say to you that no one needs you to be sorry for us so you can stop worrying.
I've tried, the whole situation is a shitshow right now.
It's an incredibly complex situation, but as a baseline:
Intentionally targeting civilians is unacceptable.
Hamas does this with great pride. It celebrates the slaughter and kidnapping of civilians. It pays the families of terrorists in celebration of their terrorism.
In my opinion, the IDF is remarkably careful not to kill civilians. There have been incidental killings, largely, from my knowledge, when Hamas fires rockets from civilian areas such as homes, mosques, hospitals, and schools. There have been rogue Israeli actors who killed civilians intentionally, and they have mostly been tried and convicted for their crimes. There have been moral failures on behalf of the IDF, but it does generally investigate those failures seriously, rather than celebrating them.
I do sympathize for innocent Palestinians who are doubly oppressed by Hamas and the Israeli occupation, but feel that the occupation is necessary to prevent greater violence against Israeli civilians.
That's about all I can give you without digging into the history.
Anyone who calls the IDF careful about avoiding civilian deaths is either deeply ignorant or arguing in bad faith and seeking to legitimize a highly brutally murderous apartheid regime.
https://jcpa.org/the-gaza-war-2014/israel-gaza-humanitarian-law-civilian-casualties/
https://kbin.social/m/Israel/t/368817/A-handy-list-of-sources-describing-where-Hamas-produces-stores
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-usa-gaza-idUSKBN0IQ2LH20141106
The sheer number of civilian casaulties makes all of this irrelevant, and makes you an apartheid apologist. I don't engage with supporters of apartheid regimes, so enjoy the block.
"Hamas may be using its civilians as meat shields, but no matter how careful Israel is, you're not allowed to call them careful because many of the meat shields still end up dying!"
You're a Hamas apologist. I haven't defended anything that could be called apartheid, and wouldn't. But go ahead and blame me for citing facts.
Thanks for your input, it's always good to get people's perceptions on things, it all helps build context.
Israel does nothing "indiscriminately." Israel uses lots of advanced technology to try to make sure the buildings it attacks are clear of civilians: both to check the buildings and to warn any potential civilians they might have missed to evacuate. The "middle ground" approach is exactly what the IDF is doing.
Ah yes, perhaps you can check Wikipedia and compare the numbers of civilian casualties and tell us again, how Israel is doing everything to protect the civilians.
The truth is that after each Palestinian attack when you compare the numbers of civilian casualties you can see that they are a couple of times higher on the Palestinian side.
This tactic isn't exactly the one screaming I want to find a long term peace solution. And mind you, I am not defending Hamas here, what they did is horrible, the problem is that neither of the sides is looking for reconciliation, which is sad, and that the innocents are the ones who suffer the most.
Israeli civilian deaths from this attack—which again, was actively, intentionally targeted at civillians—were 250. IIRC, the latest number of Palestinian deaths, including combatants, in 2023, is "over 200."
But I wasn't talking about numbers. I was talking about intent, effort, strategy. Yes, some Palestinian civilians do die as a result of attacks by Israel. Israel tends to be better at protecting its civilians, Hamas intentionally puts its civilians in harm's way. Yes, to some extent, the numbers reflect that.
And by the way, there are also Palestinians dying to friendly fire caused by haphazard rocket fire.
And I said by the time this recent escalation ends. Meaning that this end won't be today as the retaliation of Israel is currently ongoing and surprise surprise civilian casualties numbers are not going to be updated immediately.
Do you really believe that there won't be any retaliation strikes from Israel that won't involve civilian deaths on the Palestinian side? Because if you do you are a fool!
Again not defending Hamas, just saying that seeing only one side of the conflict and what their wrongdoings are isn't the best approach in this case.
I didn't say that.
I really don't think Israel will target any civilians. Some rogue IDF soldiers have done so in the past, but it's rare and generally punished quite quickly.
I can't say which side will suffer more civilian casualties, but I know that Hamas's goal is to cause as many as possible, and Israel is making very active efforts to cause as few as possible. The fact that Israel is well-equipped to defend itself and Hamas doesn't feel like it will, inevitably, skew the statistics.
Oh so your point is that Israeli civilian casualties matter more, right? Plus provide me with any proof that IDF soldiers are really trialed and effectively put into prison with effective sentences.
Plus the whole fact that Israel is not a member of the ICC speaks volumes about their human rights track record https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/arabs-israel-stay-sidelines-raging-democracy-battle-2023-07-26/#:~:text=While Israel says it grants,more than three times higher.
Plus it is not like Israeli politicians are not complicit by inciting racial hatred by stating that certain Palestinian villages must be erased or by continually expanding the Israeli settlements in disputed territories. So I don't know for you but in my books that's not exactly screaming actively looking for a peaceful solution to the problem. You should also check what pretty much every independent human rights watch group has to say about the issue.
Again not defending any civilian casualties and I wish both parties were actually looking to resolve this problem in a peaceful manner through diplomatic channels. Unfortunately that boat departed, after the Oslo accord, there are no real attempts to reconcile instead things seem to be getting worse every year with no hope in sight.
The israelis are supposed to respect the israeli/palestinian borders and stop colonizing palestinian land.
what hamas did is terrorism and they need to be brought to justice.
and israeli leaders need to be brought to justice also.
Quick question: why does the innocent victim state have (until today) roughly 20x the casualties of the genocidal terrorist organization?
Even with the updated estimates (as I type this comment, 232 Palestinians dead since the attack and 250 Israelis dead), Israel has killed over 10x the amount of people.
So like… how's that work?
Can't label either side as innocent in this conflict.
This is an inhuman comment
You are inhumane. Your argument is "Israel has a stronger military, so they should allow Hamas to slaughter and rape their population and shoot thousands of rockets into their cities"
This is an insane thing to post, you look at a video of a bomb leveling an apartment building with people inside and your go-to is to smear those calling for humanity as rape enablers and murderers. Somewhere you lost your way
You lost your way. You see videos of men and women slaughtered in the streets. Children running and screaming from a concert. A young woman bloodied around her rear thrown into the back of a car and you cheer. Israel has no choice but to return with strength. You are cheering on slaughter. You're disgusting.
Does this make you feel strong? Does it make you feel secure?
No, the opposite, actually. It makes me sad that people only care about what they think and not about what it costs, which makes me feel scared and insecure. I have extended family in Israel who have a mix of views on the situation.
Israel has been oppressing Palestinians. They have been building illegal settlements in the West Bank, pushing people from their homes. Netanyahu is a fascist, he wishes to be king. Don't forget that the citizens have been protesting, the country has been divided. This will unite them under hate and fear. Hamas is a terrorist organization who kidnaps, rapes, and slaughters citizens. They make any negotiations for long term peace impossible. The result of this is pain and death for innocent Palestinians and Israelis. Israel will respond with force. It is the reality. Yet people all over Lemmy are cheering as if this is a good thing, as if anything good will come of this. It's sad, and it isn't going to make anything better for anyone.
I'm sorry your comment became the target of my frustrations with what is going on. It's just that the situation is more complex than good guys and bad guys.
of course it is, it can't be summed up so simply. It's misery, and we can't lose sight of that for fear and anger, even though we must also hold those
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