Yeah. Marx called it formal vs. real freedom. All the people are free to sleep under the bridges or at a five star penthouse. But some are forced to sleep under the bridge and only a few have means to exercise the freedom to enter the penthouse.
Welcome to the resistance, comrade
Lenin/Stalin/Mao or real communism?
Try harder
What real communism would you point to? Castro? Ho? Kim?
If the only communism you believe in is imaginary, perhaps you have a problem with reality.
There has never been a successful large scale communism in history.
Maybe sweden in the seventies comes closest.
What do you mean with “try harder”?
Sweden is does not come close, no.
Try harder means do more work. What is communism?
Engels wrote:
Communism is the doctrine of the conditions of the liberation of the proletariat.
In this way, Communism is the theory and the practice of bringing about conditions of the liberation of the proletariat. In this way, all communism is successful in so far as it improves the conditions of proletariat against their oppressors and fails in so far as they stop doing that.
The USSR, therefore, was wildly successful and large scale. It ended serfdom entirely. It defeated the Nazis. It ended the centuries-long 4-7 year cycle of famine. It created the second-best-fed society in the world. And then it failed. It fell to revisionism, elevating a liberal class of would be property owners. It created the conditions for the oligarchs, and then it dismantled itself in favor of liberal capitalism and private enrichment.
China, therefore, is wildly successful and large scale. It has so far lifted 800 million people out of abject poverty. Grandmothers alive today in China saw their lives go from rice farming at a dollar a month to driving electric cars that respond to hand signals. They ended the centuries-long 2-4 year famine cycle. The ended the serf system. They have developed industrial capacity to such a degree that their massive country has a domestic purchasing power for its citizens equivalent to the greatest empire in the world, with far less inequality
Vietnam, therefore, is wildly successful. It fought against its colonizers (the French) and then successfully fought off the greatest military in the history of the world. Then it rebuilt its destroyed country and fed its people.
North Korea, therefore, is wildly successful. After the world’s most powerful military destroyed everything in their country, every single structure, poisoned their land, and made them all to live in caves to avoid the constant napalm strafing, they worked together and rebuilt everything by hand without any ability to trade with the rest of the world except an impoverished China and revisionist USSR. They not only developed a modern agricultural base, electrical grid, technology sector, urban density, education system, and healthcare system, they also developed a strong enough military to deter further attacks on their people by Western oppressors.
Cuba, therefore, is wildly successful. Despite 60 years of embargo, Cuba still has higher literacy, higher life expectancy, greater democratic participation, and stronger community support than the richest empire on the planet. Cuba developed healthcare for its citizens to such a degree that they have a surplus of doctors who can help other nations. They developed a COVID vaccine on the same timeline as the US did without having to spend $4B as an incentive. They invented a vaccine for lung cancer and they give of their life saving openly and freely to liberate their people and others from the oppression of the wealthy who demand profit for health. Americans can’t even get access to the lung cancer vaccine because of the embargo. Cuba ended the racial apartheid of the capitalist regime, liberating all people to participate in their own governance.
Perhaps you’ve got another definition for communism?
Slavery evolved and took on new names, but never disappeared.
How much do you have saved up, that you’re willing to tap into so that you can live for yourself and others, and not a paycheck? How long could you just exist before the debt becomes crushing? That’s the length of your leash.
Retired people who live comfortably are basically ‘off leash’ but still confined to the yard. Some people have a 1-2 week ‘leash’. Some may have saved up enough to have a 6-12 month 'leash The rest are the ‘i could stop working whenever I want, but refuse to’ or ‘man I’m so fucking far in debt that I’ll never be able to stop fucking working’
Most people will never be able to stop working because I’m a slave based economy, a slave must earn it’s food every day, and it’s bed every night.
The idea that you have to earn a living means you dont deserve to live.
I get what you’re saying, but I think it’d be better phrased as ‘the system’ (rich people) don’t want you to live.
The system is designed so that you must prove your worth every day, and provide more profit than you take in wages, every day. It was designed to exploit you for everything you have to offer.
If you continue to adhere to the same system, your best case scenario is to be ‘allowed’ a peaceful death after a lifetime of doing everything ‘right’.
I often hear that phrase from parents. Its not entirely rich people reinforcing the system. Until everyone has stopped being capitalism-pilled, we’re cooked.
I can echo that statement. The insular family promulgates and reinforces the very ideas that keep us chained. It’s so fucking frustrating. Thanks Reagan and all the puppeteers in the shadows, from before his time and now. It’s a travesty of wasted human potential.
Voluntary debt slavery.
Wage slavery. The US is one of the worst offenders. By binding your healthcare to your employer and having next to no worker protection laws, the loss of your job might cause homelessness or death. Is that really a choice? Work or die? And with stagnating wages who has the financial security and time to fight for their rights?
This is of course by design.
“It is difficult for me to imagine what ‘personal liberty’ is enjoyed by an unemployed person, who goes about hungry, and cannot find employment. Real liberty can exist only where exploitation has been abolished, where there is no oppression of some by others, where there is no unemployment and poverty, where a man is not haunted by the fear of being tomorrow deprived of work, of home and of bread.”
Kropotkin?
You have stumbled onto one of the most fundamental criticisms of modern capitalism, freedom & plenty for the few. It’s better than a hereditary feudal system in that upward class mobility isn’t categorically forbidden, but the reality for the vast majority of people is that actually moving up is not possible because the game is still rigged to produce almost exactly the same results as the old system.
Unironically what natives of the Great Lakes region have been saying about the “civilized” western way of life for centuries.
The USA you’re free to do whatever you like as long as it’s these few specific things we believe are economically beneficial to the leaders but not you.
The economy is designed to keep you locked into working for the rest of your life under stress. Freedom is only given to capitalists because that’s how the system is designed.
One loophole is stealing.
I sold drugs, that was real freedom.
Asterix did a great bit on that. Slaves are freed and put to work for money, but suddenly they owe for food, housing, clothing, infrastructure etc. and are just as much slaves as before. In fact, they go back to being slaves because then they don’t have to worry anymore.
In fact, they go back to being slaves because then they don’t have to worry anymore.
This last bit is Neo-Confederate propaganda. The “slaves were happy to be slaves” myth is wildly apocryphal.
Far more often, the freedmen leave their plantation economies in pursuit of more lucrative work in more industrial and urban regions. Harlem, New York and Detroit, Michigan are testament to the exodus of American colored people northward following the war. Or they strike out to undeveloped territories and form their own municipalities. Large black communities popped up across the Southwest and West coast, as the post-Civil War frontier was subjected to industrial scale genocide of native peoples.
The consequence of this mass migration is a labor shortage at home. One which can only be resolved by (a) raising wages / living standards until people want to stay or (b) re-enslaving the population through other means. In the case of the US South, these “other means” were the Jim Crow laws, which transformed the private plantation economy into a publicly managed (and privately profitable) state prison economy.
Following the end of Reconstruction under Rutherford B. Hayes, southern state governments imposed a suite of laws forbidding “vagrancy” and constricting the right of colored people to travel unattended. Independent communities of black citizens were raided and demolished (The Wilmington Massacre of 1898, the Tulsa Massacre of 1921 being two notable examples - really all of Red Summer being a major historical turning point for American race relations). Enormous prison compounds were constructed. And the incarceration rate among people of color skyrocketed.
The campaign to re-enslave the colored population was a central position of the “Dixiecrats” straight into the LBJ administration. And capturing these revanchists was pivotal to the Nixon and Reagan campaigns, even as the taste for segregation soured nationally on the American tongue. All of this was covered up and expunged from US History, following the 1980s Reagan Revolution and the reactionary efforts to undo the Civil Rights Movement. So it’s very easy to never know the long dark winter of civil rights in post-Civil War American history.
But “slaves were actually happier to be on the plantation” is textbook Coolidge Era white nationalist revisionism.
That’s all well and good, but Asterix is a satirical comic book making a point about wage slavery, not happy slaves. The author is French, the story in France, and the slaves are Roman.
And I might have imagined the re-enslaving, too. I can’t find it in plot summaries. Maybe it’s in the movie adaptation, but the scene of their “freeing” is pretty clear about its point.
The author is French, the story in France, and the slaves are Roman.
No shortage of French slavery in the New World. Just ask anyone from Louisiana or Haiti.
Maybe it’s in the movie adaptation, but the scene of their “freeing” is pretty clear about its point.
Oh sure. You can find all sorts of period critiques of industrial capitalism as slavery with extra steps.
But the notion that people would volunteer to return to bondage really undersells how hard plantation overseers and state police in slave states had to work to keep them there.
Which is why I plan to fuck off to a mountain, and play dead.
Yup. I remember a friend and I discussing various forms of freedoms: Freedom of speech, religion, privacy, etc. We tried to rank them by importance, and while I cannot remember our conclusions, I remember “Economic freedom” to be among the most important ones.
A person should have disposable income and freedom to spent it how they want.
i like to think it’s not “disposable” income that is spent on things required for life, hunger, house, health. those things should be provided. and those industries not allowed to profit. and be owned by the workers.
we must also demand enough free time to enjoy the fruits of our labor.
its by design, politicians billionaire class intentionally instigated this way so people dont start pondering about politics, rising up against the aristocrats.
Eh, yes and no.
People often don’t really appreciate how much freedom they have until it’s taken away.
But even with no money at all, I have a bike, and I can ride it as far as I care to in any direction I want (well, at least until I hit a border). And that is so much more freedom than I’ve had at other points in my life.
How would you get food and healthcare? What about people with a chronic condition where if they lose their healthcare they won’t physically be able to?
Hint: we don’t get healthcare typicaly anyway.
Okay… but what happens when you’re hungry and broke at the same time? Just gonna ride your bike until you happen to come across someone handing out free food? The ‘ability to bike around the block’ isn’t the kind of freedom that OP was talking about, it’s the freedom to do what you want with your life without being forced to do something else (make money) first
And what I’m talking about is that when you don’t have ‘ability to bike around the block’ freedom, that really puts things in perspective for you.
Hard to ride a bike when you don’t have your health, sadly.
I would say more to the point if everything in life needs to make a profit then freedom isn’t free
It’s like having health insurance but you can’t afford the copays. Then you don’t really have health insurance do you ?
